Doan Deal a Killer for the Leafs

Buried under the big news of the Peter Forsberg trade to the Nashville Predators was the confirmation of the signing by the Phoenix Coyotes of forward Shane Doan to a 5 year 23 million dollar deal that includes a no-movement clause. The 30 year old power forward was set to become an unrestricted free agent. The Yotes seemed poised to be a big seller come the trade deadline after already moving forward Ladislav Nagy however the team decided to keep their captain and heart and soul player in the fold.

The deal signed by Doan will have a major impact this summer as there are similar players set to also become unrestricted free agents and will as well be looking for a big pay raise. Included in that list is the Maple Leafs Darcy Tucker.

There is no doubt the Doan signing will influence the negotiations between Tucker and the Leafs as they try to work out a long term deal. Already been discussed has been numbers in the $3-4 million dollar per year range plus a no movement clause. With Doan getting at least that, we can be sure Tucker will be looking for about the same.

Now Doan is perhaps the better player but both are very close in age, both are the heart and soul types, and both interestingly enough have similar stats in their NHL careers.

Doan in his career has amassed 191 goals, 261 assists for 452 points in 779 games and. 6 goals, 6 assists for 12 points in 32 playoff games. Tucker on the other hand has 174 goals, 216 assists for 390 points in 722 games and 10 goals, 11 assist for 21 points in 62 playoff games.

Ironically, both were teammates of a very successful CHL team in Kamloops and members of a Memorial Cup winner. Both also have had success internationally. No doubt, Tucker will look to cash in like his fellow Blazer alumni.

This news could not be better for the Tucker camp with the trade deadline looming and time running out for the Leafs to make a decision. The Leafs will need to sign him or get close to that or else find a trade partner in the next 11 days. From Toronto’s point of view, this is absolutely the worst news because the precedent has been set and the Leafs will likely have to commit to that as the team appears to be set to not make any moves, including trading Tucker away by February 27th.

Tucker has been a great Leaf. He has given them great service giving it his complete effort and laying his body and health on the line almost every night. We have seen that from past Leaf greats such as Wendel Clark. What we have also seen from those types of players is them breaking down later on in their careers because they are no longer able to continue to do the things that made them successful early on in their careers.

Tucker has fought, hit anyone and everyone in sight with his 5’10 160 pound frame, he has blocked shots, bled, been batter and broken and done that since his first game in the blue and white. Now ready to turn 32 this year and currently going through the worst injury of his career, how much left does Tucker have in the tank?

Unfortunately the leadership currently in charge at MLSE does not have the capability or the ability to see or notice what almost everyone else sees. John Ferguson has so far in his career as GM has been more receptive to the notion of the devil he knows than the devil he doesnt.

This explains why he has done a much better job finding minor league fill-ins such as John Pohl, Bates Battaglia as Ferguson was a former minor league GM who scouted extensively these types of players. This explains why he committed major money to Bryan Mccabe despite perhaps better blueliners across the league being available at relatively the same price. This is why he committed major money re-signing Belfour, Roberts and others (including re-signing Aki Berg 3 straight years) with the lockout looming, the financial landscape completely unknown and a cache of other, better players maybe coming available. He much preferred keeping the team that lost in the 2nd round intact.

In all likelihood, Tucker will also receive the same treatment. While the actual salary is still unknown, 3-4 million at least is not out of the question. And the no movement clause is a lock and that will likely keep Tucker around for the balance of his career. That is a shame after seeing the price of rentals rise exponentially thanks to the Forsberg trade and to a lesser extent the Brad Stuart move. Tucker obviously will not garner as much a return that the Flyers received from Nashville, but it appears a fairly good player who could just last 3 months with their new team could fetch one decent young player and one decent draft pick.

The Leafs under John Ferguson have continuously let these opportunities go to waste and in doing so provide more reason to find a replacement for him as general manager. The consistent mismanagement, lack of direction and foolish spending of money has left Toronto in that Stanley Cup drought they are currently enduring.

It is guaranteed now Darcy Tucker will remain a Leaf for life and while he has given Toronto great service, it’s opportunity wasted for the Leafs.

This coming Saturday the Leafs will celebrate their last cup win from 40 years ago. How ironic is it that the principles Punch Imlach followed 4 decades earlier have not changed one bit today under John Ferguson. The Leafs still hang their hats on aging favorites whose best game has long since passed. Fresh ideals, smarts, direction, until the Maple Leafs find someone with those traits, we can expect Leaf Nation to celebrate that ’67 team for a very long time.


45 Responses to Doan Deal a Killer for the Leafs

  1. muckies says:

    Tucker is a good hockey player, but the Leafs need players that can saty healthy for 82 games to make the playoffs. Last season if their main guys were healthy like Lindros, Belfour etc, they probbaly would have made the playoffs.

    same this season, they sign Peca and Tucker, and they are broken down. Nothing agianst thier injuries because they have played tough hyockey their entire careers, but the Leafs need players that will give them 82 games and not more players that are breaking down like Tucker and Peca.

    The Leafs should trade Tucker, they have played great without him, and they could use that money to get a player like Zetterberg, Smyth, Marleau that isn't broken down and will help them for 82 games.

    What the Leafs need at the deadline is a BACK-UP GOALIE that can win them 3-4 games down the strecth, If Raycroft has to play every game until the deadline, he'll burn out. Trade for a goalie like Belfour or Markanen that can come in and win you the games he plays as a back-up.  Nothing against Aubin, but I wouldn't put my playoff hopes in his hands, better go with a proven performer.  

  2. 92-93 says:

    very good article. and the line you give pretty much sums it up:
    " is guaranteed now Darcy Tucker will remain a Leaf for life and while he has given Toronto great service, it's opportunity wasted for the Leafs. "

    i like Darcy Tucker and i love to watch him play for the leafs.

    when (not if) he plays after the 27th of February, he'll score some goals and I'll be very happy when he does. but that doesnt detract from the necessity of a longer-term view of getting a return for him and NOT signing him to the deal that JFJ is going to inevitably sign him to.

    i wonder how his injury is affecting his trade possibilities. again, i dont think he will be traded, but if he is injured … all of this is moot. JFJ has said in countless interviews recently that he doesnt see the big deal about signing him after the trade deadline. wow, the guy has not learned from his mistakes last year with McCabe, when he signed him after the deadline. the deadline is the only thing that JFJ has on his side here – the thread of trading a player who wants to stay in toronto is the only advantage he has. once that is gone, Tucker can ask for the stars and the moon like McCabe did, regardless of the Doan situation, which as you mentioned, doesnt help matters either.

    but look at Bert, he's likely injured up until the deadline and he's off the market as a result. that could be a good thing for the leafs because if Tucker is not injured, his value to other teams might be just that much more higher.
    ….

    finally, i think its a good thing that the leafs are showing a sense of history celebrating NOT ONLY the 40th anniversary of their last cup, but also the franchise's birth during the 1920s, which no one seems to be talking about.

    its easy to be negative, its harder to be positive. and i just think we should give those guys who won the cup in 67, and the franchise itself, all the respect we can regardless of who is in charge right now. the fact that journalists, bloggers, and the trickle down effect here on HTR, can only see the negative of not winning or being in a cup final since 1967 is kind of sad.

    yes i'm pissed about it. but history and celebrating history is important too, and to simply twist it into something cynical and to accuse MLSE of celebrating futility is very narrow-minded view (by the way, i dislike MLSE and Peddie and the lack of autonomy they give JFJ whatever his faults, but a balanced view is sometimes needed).

  3. 92-93 says:

    very good point (especially your 3rd paragraph).

    the fact of the matter is Tucker – for the style of game he plays – has actually been very healthy until recently. but like i've said to other leaf fans on this site and other sites, Tucker's style of play, plus his age, means that he'll likely be more injured as time goes on.

    Zetterberg wont be available and if Smyth is available Kevin Lowe would immediately go from one the top-5 smartest GMs to dumbest. There'll be other names though and that is the point. but yes you pointed out their key needs: a solid back-up (preferably a vet) – not Telly, not Aubin – but someone who is a proven starter but would take $1.5 million or less and is willing to be a back-up in Toronto (i keep thinking Cujo but i dunno).

    despite their inconsistency this year, the Leafs' D is pretty much set for awhile (although I would still try and trade Kubina or Gill or McCabe – get the latter to waive his no-trade clause at some point in the next couple of years). White, Coliacovo, Kaberle are a pretty solid, puck-moving core. Kronvall and Woz and Harrison are potential #5-6 D-guys, and Bell is a very expendable but decent trade chip.

    the leafs have loads of solid 3rd and 4th line players and have a decent core of young forwards to build around. but they need that top line winger – and the names you mentioned would be great. even a top-line centre to replace Mats when he leaves would be a smart move.

  4. LeafyMcLeaf says:

    They said Tucker got offered five years less than $3 million on TSN the other night.

    He'll be overpaid, but you gotta love the guy.

  5. bleedingblu says:

    Tucker gets 3Mil or less…… sign him. I think Tucker is more interested in long term.
    AND, in no way is this bad for the Leafs! Darcy could hit, fight and score goals. His deadly on the powerplay and he steps up his game in the playoffs!!  Why trade him!! If he didn't get injured he would have had 30 goals right now and everyone would be singing another song.

    I think people should stop whinning for a sec. You can never please most Leaf fans.
    Fans wanted a younger team, well, the Leafs are 12th youngest team in the league now. You wanted the GM to stop giving away draft picks, well, thats what Ferguson is doing. Building the future. By not giving away picks we were able to acquire guys like Pogge, Tlusty and Kulemin.

    I think the Leafs are slowly getting better. I don't care if its been 40 yrs the time will come when the Leafs will win!

  6. DJTOKid says:

    Aren't the Kamloops Blazers in the WHL??? You're a tool…

  7. LeafyMcLeaf says:

    Don't look now, but if the Maple Leafs beat the Oilers, they're in seventh, and they're two points back of the Lightning.

  8. 92-93 says:

    the WHL is a part of the CHL, its one of the CHL's 3 leagues (WHL, OHL, the Q).

  9. bleedingblu says:

    Exactly!
    Welly… Tucks…. come back soon!!

  10. ST3V3ISG0D says:

    The Leafs are as jinxed as Philly is, they can do no right to build a contender.  </end>!!
    They should send Darcy over to Detroit, talk about room to thrive!

  11. nordiques100 says:

    you better spell it out for him

    CHL = Canadian Hockey League

    QMJHL = Quebec Major Junior Hockey League

    OHL = Ontario Hockey League

    WHL = Western Hockey League

  12. the_word says:

    Um, last time I checked the Leafs need help on the wing and Darcy Tucker is a talented winger. Hmmmm, signing him for 3 to 4 years almost makes sense.  If they trade him or let walk they'll be forced to overpay for someone else in the off season.   So getting Tucker at about 3.5-4 million is likely the best thing the Leafs can do giving the situation.

  13. the_word says:

    Tucker isn't broken down, he has a foot injuiry.  Those who predict his body is going to fall apart over the next few years don't know what their talking about.  He isn't a grinding power foward, so its very premature to predict future injury woes. 

    What Tucker does is throw the occasional big open ice hit, kinda like what Scott Stevens made a living doing.  Stevens consistently play pretty much a full season, so I don't think we can attribute open ice hits to future injuiry problems.

  14. the_word says:

    The Leafs shouldn't be desperate to get younger.  If you look at their farm system there really isn't much room for young defensemen as the Leafs are well stocked, they have a great goaltending prospect in Pogge however they could use some more fowards.  They'll have a decent 1st round pick this year, they'll get one, maybe pick another up in later round and Tlusy is coming up.

    If you look at the Leafs this year, they've had one really bad stretch, where Raycorft played horrible, but they were at the start of the year and are looking pretty good right now despite injury woes.  I know it'll uspet a lot of Leafs fans that are hoping this team falls apart, but thats doesn't seem all that likely.  JFJ can't simply abandon the core he's put together simply because the Leafs aren't a top four seed in the East.  Its time some fans come back down to earth with respect to the direction of this team.

  15. bleedingblu says:

    Thank you. Well put!

  16. 92-93 says:

    for future reference: dont compare stevens' hitting style to tucker's.

  17. muckies says:

    To put Scott Stevens hits into the same category as Tucker is like comparing Joe Sakic to Matt Stajan, not even in the same category.   Tucker can hit well, Stevens is the games all-time best hitter.

    Stevens is a Hall of Famer and one of the best D-men to ever play. He won 3 Cups as a Captain and a Conn Smyth. He played a controlled game and he was SUPER EFFICIENT.  Tucker doesn't have near the same presence, he has to play the way he does because he doesn't create near the same space as Stevens, or play anything like the controlled efficent game Stevens played. The only time Stevens was ever leing on the ice was when he dove for pucks, Tucker is opn the ice every second shift taking big hits and running into the boards -= it takes it's toll after a while.

    Tucker weighes 175 pounds, Stevens weighed 220. that's a big difference when you play the way Tucker does. Your body gets beeten up, You slow down, are more prone to injuries and can't take as much abuse.   Tucker is great but yu gotta recognuse the change in his game, he doesn't fight anybody tough anymore, physically he can't do what he used to do, he's slowing down and needs to change his game.

  18. 92-93 says:

    hey i dont mind Tucker on the Leafs. he'll pot the 20-25 goals, he'll be the gritty forward, etc.

    but just not at that price. but hey, the status quo will be maintained for the deadline so no worries. all i am saying – and all that nords is saying – is that there is an opportunity here for the leafs. if they dont jump on it, we'll have Tucker in our line up for years to come and that is not bad either.

  19. the_word says:

    I was just think of this, a little off topic, but consider (I'm not bashing him, I think he's a good player too) how good Willie Mitchel looks in front of Loungo and the fact the Leafs defense look pretty good in front of Raycorft when Raycorft plays decent, and how bad they look when Raycorft has an off night.   I mean how many times do we see Raycroft face under 25 shots a night.  I think a goaltending upgrade, Tucker (give him the 2.5 Peca frees up) and signing another winger (with the cap going up) could put this team over the top.

  20. the_word says:

    OMG, lets keep the hyperboles in check, I didn't say Darcy Tucker was
    Scott Stevens.  I said he throws the OCCASIONAL open ice hit.  Stevens threws hit like that all the time and he was no worse for wear.

    Tucker may only be 175 pounds, but he picks his spots and doesn't have a history of long term injuries (a fact that is often ignored).

    Tucker is slowing down?  Last time I checked he was following up a career year with another career year.  He still plays physically, but he by no means has a one dimensional power game (ala Bertuzzi) so you can't say his body is gonna break down like a power fowards would.

  21. the_word says:

    Thanks chief, great post

  22. muckies says:

    O.K. I see what your saying,

    what I emant to say is tucker has completly changed his game has isn't the physical player he once was, he's a "goal scorer" as he called himslef, but I really think the Leafs need to realize what they are getting with Tucker when they sign him long term.

    he's turned into more of a Scott Gomez type than what he used to be. He can play physical, BUT the physical dirty work maybe better from a bigger player that can handle the heavy lifting for 3-5 seasons. AND the offence may be better from a player like Zetterberg or Nagy, i just think they should go in a different direction.

    They trade Tucker and it gives them picks and free's up Cap-room to get to make a move for a more physical player, or a better offensive player.  

  23. the_word says:

    If you look way back at Tucker's number in Tampa Bay, he wasn't all that bad, considering he was young and it was the era of clutching and grabbing.  Even when he came to the Leafs he put up really good number when on Sundin's line (better than Hoglund/Steen type numbers).  He's always had offensive skill but his production depends on the role he's put it and he's excelled in every role he's been asked to fill.

    I see him more of a pest than a physical player.  If you ever get go and see the Leafs play live, one of the best things to watch is Tucker yap in everyone's face, he shuts up, he's the type of player other teams hate to play against and he's skilled.  I think that set him apart from over productive goal scoring wingers.

  24. the_word says:

    typo, he never shuts up…

  25. bleedingblu says:

    Sundin and Tucker will be leafs for ever…… done!

    Sundin, Tucker, Kaberle and McCabe are the core of this team.

    Fergie will not break this up.

  26. pensfan29 says:

    I dont think there is any truth to this, but I heard a rumor Shane Doan For Ryan Malone!?

  27. TheDonkey says:

    I guess that if Doan just signed a 5 year deal with a no-trade clause, then this rumour can put to rest.

  28. MrV says:

    good read but i would like to comment on another comment that was made

    Sundin and Tucker will be leafs for ever…… done!
    Sundin, Tucker, Kaberle and McCabe are the core of this team.
    Fergie will not break this up.

    this comment is the soul reason why the leafs arn't winners i have said this before and for the last time here it goes Tucker hasent done anything in a long time to help this team out at all due to injury but if anybody has watched any games while Tucker has been injured the leafs look better off without him get somebody who can score a even strength goal the pp goals he scores a minor tyke houseleague player could tap those in. McCabe is also useless this year I will admit I was pumped and gungho about him last year but he is a terrible defenceman I will be hanging up his jersey today and puchasing a coli jersey McCabe has no heart. The last thing wrong with this comment is Fergy wont break this core up what core this core is a joke compared to other teams we as leaf fans need to stop overrating our players we have 1 allstar defenceman in Kaberle and untill the leafs can get a consistant 100 + point getter we wont have a respectable core of players the leafs might as well tank their team and play with rookies for a few years so they can pick up Tavares in the draft

  29. 92-93 says:

    youre welcome. i figured others knew exactly what i was saying. theres a time to say a lot, and times when you dont have to say much.

  30. 92-93 says:

    there is no one on the leafs that plays D as good as Mitchell or the same style as Mitchell – the closest is Gill, but clearly there are huge differences there. 

    but i know what you are saying and youre right.

    and with the cap going up, having Tucker AND a solid first line/top-6 winger is not  bad ideal. BUT … Tucker with a no-trade clause? why saddle the next GM toronto with 5 no-trade clauses (i count Kubina's contract as a no-trade because it is untradeable)?

    resign Tucker by all means – but be smart about. do it before Feb 27 when the threat of a trade is still there, dont include any clauses, and make 3.5 million or less for 3 years or less.

  31. the_word says:

    You're right, how dare I compare an open ice hit to another open ice.  Steen is an allstar, Nagy is dominant forward.  You know this game inside out.

  32. lukeleim says:

    Brendan Bell, John Pohl & Ben Ondrus to the Florida Panthers for Gary Roberts & Stephen Weiss

    Darcy Tucker & Andy Wozniewski to the Minnesota Wild for Benoit Pouliot & Brent Burns

    Hal Gill to the Pittsburgh Penguins for Kristopher Letang

    Alexei Ponikarovsky – Mats Sundin – Nik Antropov
    Alexander Steen – Matt Stajan – Jeff O'Neill 
    Gary Roberts – Stephen Weiss – Travis Green
    Bates Battaglia – Chad Kilger – Boyd Devereaux
    —————————————————–
    Benoit Pouliot – Wade Belak
    inj: Kyle Wellwood, Kris Newbury & Michael Peca

    Tomas Kaberle – Pavel Kubina
    Bryan McCabe – Carlo Colaiacovo
    Brent Burns – Ian White
    —————————————
    Kristopher Letang – Staffan Kronwall
    Jay Harrison

    Andrew Raycroft
    Jean-Sabastien Aubin

    Playoffs:

    Alexei Ponikarovsky – Mats Sundin – Nik Antropov
    Matt Stajan – Kyle Wellwood – Alexander Steen
    Gary Roberts – Stephen Weiss – Jeff O'Neill
    Bates Battaglia – Michael Peca – Chad Kilger
    ——————————————————
    Boyd Devereaux – Travis Green – Wade Belak
    Beniot Pouliot – Kris Newbury

    Tomas Kaberle – Pavel Kubina
    Bryan McCabe – Carlo Colaiacovo
    Brent Burns – Ian White
    ————————————-
    Kristopher Letang – Staffan Kronwall
    Jay Harrison

    Andrew Raycroft
    Jean-Sabastien Aubin

    Offseason:

    Let Jeff O'Neill, Travis Green, Michael Peca & Jean-Sabastien Aubin test UFA

    Sign Chris Phillips & Curtis Joseph

    Alexei Ponikarovsky – Mats Sundin – Nik Antropov
    Gary Roberts – Stephen Weiss – Alexander Steen
    Matt Stajan – Kyle Wellwood – Brent Burns
    Bates Battaglia – Chad Kilger – Boyd Devereaux
    ——————————————————–
    Benoit Pouliot – Kris Newbury – Wade Belak
    Jiri Tlusty – Jeremy Williams – Aleksander Suglobov

    Tomas Kaberle – Pavel Kubina
    Carlo Colaiacovo – Bryan McCabe
    Chris Phillips – Ian White
    ————————————-
    Kristopher Letang – Staffan Kronwall
    Jay Harrison

    Andrew Raycroft
    Curtis Joseph
    —————–
    Justin Pogge

  33. lukeleim says:

    Brendan Bell, John Pohl & Ben Ondrus to the Florida Panthers for Gary Roberts & Stephen Weiss

    Darcy Tucker & Andy Wozniewski to the Minnesota Wild for Benoit Pouliot & Brent Burns

    Hal Gill to the Pittsburgh Penguins for Kristopher Letang

    Alexei Ponikarovsky – Mats Sundin – Nik Antropov
    Alexander Steen – Matt Stajan – Jeff O'Neill 
    Gary Roberts – Stephen Weiss – Travis Green
    Bates Battaglia – Chad Kilger – Boyd Devereaux
    —————————————————–
    Benoit Pouliot – Wade Belak
    inj: Kyle Wellwood, Kris Newbury & Michael Peca

    Tomas Kaberle – Pavel Kubina
    Bryan McCabe – Carlo Colaiacovo
    Brent Burns – Ian White
    —————————————
    Kristopher Letang – Staffan Kronwall
    Jay Harrison

    Andrew Raycroft
    Jean-Sabastien Aubin

    Playoffs:

    Alexei Ponikarovsky – Mats Sundin – Nik Antropov
    Matt Stajan – Kyle Wellwood – Alexander Steen
    Gary Roberts – Stephen Weiss – Jeff O'Neill
    Bates Battaglia – Michael Peca – Chad Kilger
    ——————————————————
    Boyd Devereaux – Travis Green – Wade Belak
    Beniot Pouliot – Kris Newbury

    Tomas Kaberle – Pavel Kubina
    Bryan McCabe – Carlo Colaiacovo
    Brent Burns – Ian White
    ————————————-
    Kristopher Letang – Staffan Kronwall
    Jay Harrison

    Andrew Raycroft
    Jean-Sabastien Aubin

    Offseason:

    Let Jeff O'Neill, Travis Green, Michael Peca & Jean-Sabastien Aubin test UFA

    Sign Chris Phillips & Curtis Joseph

    Alexei Ponikarovsky – Mats Sundin – Nik Antropov
    Gary Roberts – Stephen Weiss – Alexander Steen
    Matt Stajan – Kyle Wellwood – Brent Burns
    Bates Battaglia – Chad Kilger – Boyd Devereaux
    ——————————————————–
    Benoit Pouliot – Kris Newbury – Wade Belak
    Jiri Tlusty – Jeremy Williams – Aleksander Suglobov

    Tomas Kaberle – Pavel Kubina
    Carlo Colaiacovo – Bryan McCabe
    Chris Phillips – Ian White
    ————————————-
    Kristopher Letang – Staffan Kronwall
    Jay Harrison

    Andrew Raycroft
    Curtis Joseph
    —————–
    Justin Pogge

  34. 92-93 says:

    despite the exterior sarcasm, deep down, you know that i know what i am talking about.

    its weird. sometimes you say things that make sense – which is no large feat in of itself. then you make comments that compare Tucker to Stevens that make no sense whatsover. let me put it in another, less corrosive way: i disagree with you.

    i disagree with Leafy too. and despite the differences in your respective IQ's, i've come to understand that when i am disagreeing with you or Leafy on certain subjects, that more often than not i am probably on the right track. both of you guys are 'pre' guys. you jump to conclusions and judgements about certain players. and now you are getting into the bad habit of comparing players that shouldnt be compared (or more specifically, the skills of the players that shouldnt be compared).

    its one thing to project that someone is going to be good or bad. but you guys have it set in stone that certain players will be good or bad. at least i can step back and say maybe Nagy won't develop into a top-line, all-star forward (although i think he is pretty close to that already). i can admit that Steen might not be a top-6 forward in the future and part of a very strong, smart, efficient core of forwards for the leafs over the next few seasons (although, again, the signs and evidence are all there that players like Steen and Stajan are already all these things).

    i guess its just the wording of it, isn't it 'the_word'?

  35. the_word says:

    Yawn, stay in ivory and write about you fantasy league teams, and bore us with your what the Leafs could be in 2011.

    You're misguided.  I didn't compare Tucker to Stevens.  I compared one aspect of both their games.  You took the that and ran with it (not surprisingly).

    I lay it out this way, (rolling my eyes) most people who disagree with you can look foward to the following responses 'your view is too simplistic', or 'you're seeing things to black or white' or I'm personal favorite 'I could assume….(reconstruct argument here'. 

    "you guys have it set in stone that certain players will be good or bad"  Hmmmmmmmmmm, I was skeptical about Gill, Kubina, Antropov and pretty much most players I've ever posted about.  But I guess that makes me the same a Leafy huh.

    To suggest that I think to rigidly because I criticize players like Steen or Nagy who've proven nothing, is juvenile.  

    You've have a problem evaluating talent.  Its not a matter taking a step back to consider what a player may develop into, you constantly jump the gun and give undeserved praise to players who haven't proven themselves or over value the potential of a draft picks. 

  36. Aetherial says:

    Who are the aging favorites that they are hanging their hats on.

    Sundin, yeah.

    The rest of the team is young or in their prime years. Early 30's is prime years.

  37. 92-93 says:

    this blurb from the Star today exemplifies why this ceremony tonight should be applauded, not because of futility but because of promise and potential:

    ""You win a Cup in this city and guys are getting honoured 40 years later. The next team that does it will probably be held in even higher regard because it took so long. There's a lot of upside to having that pressure on you to do well in this city," he said.

    Travis Green is in his second stint in Toronto and, after playing in less traditional markets such as Phoenix and Anaheim, said the passion fans have here drives the team.

    "People in this city embrace the team like they're on the team," he said. "You want to win for them but, trust me, nobody wants to win a Stanley Cup more than the guys in this room. (A ceremony like tonight) definitely lights the fire. Young guys on the team, even the older guys, will get to see first hand what a big deal it really is here. You win a Stanley Cup in a place, it's not forgotten in a year, two years, 10 years or 40 years. As big a deal as it is to us as players it's probably as a big a deal to the people in this city."

    Matt Stajan said the team is frequently reminded, by fans and media, about the 40 Cup-less years and rather than pressure he said it reminds players of the potential rewards if they could ever end that streak.

    "If the team won the Cup today, I think everyone in this dressing room would be remembered forever. It's Toronto. We get treated pretty well already. Imagine winning a Cup," he said. "It's what everybody is waiting for."

  38. 92-93 says:

    "most people who disagree with you can look foward to the following responses 'your view is too simplistic', or 'you're seeing things to black or white' or I'm personal favorite 'I could assume….(reconstruct argument"

    … that is not true at all actually. but i guess your just used to reading my disagreements with you and you chose to apply it to all of my conversations with others. that is your perogative but its a misleading one.

    Steen and Nagy have proven quite a bit since they've been in the league and have a bright future ahead of them. that is my projection of them. and for you to use my critique of you – i.e. jumping the gun both positively and negatively – and merely mimick it and turn it back on me says more about you than i ever could.

    if you chose not to take my criticisms of your flaws in writing things in stone before they have to be written, again, that is your perogative.

    of course draft picks and younger players are undetermined and are a gamble. but you are arguing in pre-cap terms here 'word.' and its not like i am saying trade every veteran on the Leafs squad here. just one or two that would increase the chances (re: increase the # of draft picks, prospects, young players) for the future.

    its all about context with this team. and you just dont seem to get it … btu dont worry, you are not the only one. you dont seem to get how shallow the organization's depth is in terms of its farm system. its gradually improving but its been in a pretty bad state for over a decade now. you dont seem to understand the term 'assets' here. i admire the fact that you are not simply an impracticaly loyalist like some other fans here ('we love darcy dont trade our heart and soul') … but there is no big picture analysis with much of your views.

    its not so much an evaluation of talent that is the problem word (oooh he's bolding now). you can replace Steen with another young name, you can replace Nagy with another UFA of YOUR CHOOSING. the problem is your long-term view – both for the future and the past. its like you are both ahistorical and afuturistic. but most of all – and at the deepest but most obvious level, you are a bitter and shallow person and its reflected in how you rarely ever take a stand, make a projection, or believe in anything.

    its like you are a nihilist, who learned a few useful terms in your undergrad term and now are holding on tight to them. you dont believe in anything, only in the ability to try and dissemble someone else's view in the most negative and corrosive manner possible. but when push comes to shove and you are asked what you believe in, what your plans are, who you think will do well (now we are talking hockey here), you've got nothing except a disorganized, here-and-now, fickle set of opinions that are never quite clear, spelled out, or backed-up because of the very real and present fear you  have of (gasp) … taking a stand or believing in something.

    … and its pointless debating or having any conversations with a person like that. its better to have one with far-right Catholic or something, who at least BELIEVES In something even though its not what i believe in. with you, you've got nothing. your empty, bitter, and utterly pointless. 

  39. the_word says:

    'you are a bitter and shallow person and its reflected in how you rarely ever take a stand, make a projection, or believe in anything.'
    '
    s like you are a nihilist, who learned a few useful terms in your undergrad term and now are holding on tight to them. you dont believe in anything, only in the ability to try and dissemble someone else's view in the most negative and corrosive manner possible.'
    '

    … and its pointless debating or having any conversations with a person like that. its better to have one with far-right Catholic or something, who at least BELIEVES In something even though its not what i believe in. with you, you've got nothing. your empty, bitter, and utterly pointless.'

    LOL, I'm bitter empty one in these exchanges?  Thats a little rich coming from you and I love this 2 dimensional cartoon stereotype of me you've created.  I guess I'm just Leafy under a different screen name. 

  40. 92-93 says:

    yeah. well, i guess i've said everything i had to say. so i'll say the same thing i said a long time ago with the first pieces of advice i ever gave you, its up to you if you want to communicate differently and become more than two-dimensional.

  41. JuicemaN says:

    92-93, I respect you and your opinions 95% of the time so don't take this too personally when I say:

    Will you guys shut up!  Neither of you are going to win our arguement, you both look at things different ways; agree to dissagree, that's all there is to it.

    Again no offense meant but from an outsiders point of view you're both just looking for the smallest error in eachother post to use that in your reply and prove eachother wrong.  Neither of you will ever win this arguement….so……Leave it alone.

    JuicemaN – on behlaf of Dr.Phil

  42. 92-93 says:

    agreed.

    (in a yokul voice) thank you Dr. Phil

  43. 92-93 says:

    (sp.) yokel (bet cletus would have spelled it right the first time)

  44. JuicemaN says:

    LOL – (again in a yolkel type voice) Yuck yuck….nice chatting with ya!

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