I'm Glad To Have Missed It
Wow. Just wow. I was on my cell phone all day long and I must say that the word “disappointing” is the best way to describe the trade deadline of 2009. Was it the economy? The salary cap? What?
My thoughts on the trades and other related issues.I do not think that there’s even a winner today. It was messy and average. Many may say that the struggling world economy has made a negative impact. I say no. These guys are high end millionaires, or billionaires. Was it the cap? Partly. Last year was a tad bit more interesting, but the expensive contracts limited a lot of possible movements today. GMs should wisen up from now on. I blame it all on lack of creativity!
Columbus acquired Antoine Vermette for Pascal LeClaire and a 2nd round draft pick. I like this trade on both sides. Columbus have Steve Mason, but even Dan LaCosta looks promising already. LeClaire was no longer needed. While still a young goalie that has yet to reach his potential, Ottawa finally gets a chance to have a solid goalie tandem in the future with Elliot and LeCalire. Vermette should be a good fit in Columbus, although not exactly the ideal center much sought after for Rick Nash. Both win this trade, regardless.
Calgary sent waiver pick-up Lawrence Nycholat, a 2nd rounder, and prospect d-man Ryan Wilson for Avs d-man Jordan Leopold. I think Colorado will soon find a new GM since Mr. Giguere has been nothing but a mess for this hockey club. No sense of direction. No identity. This guy Wilson is an average prospect, Nycholat is nothing, and the 2nd rounder is a crapshoot. Not like Leopold is a stud, but a solid d-man nonetheless. Calgary wins this one, they gave up squatto.
Phoenix traded Mik Tellqvist to Buffalo for a 4th rounder. Good move by both teams. For Phoenix, they were clearly selling as they quickly slid from 5th to 14th in a little over a month. The Jokinen trade did not help them one bit, and their defense became an issue. Buffalo gets a solid goalie in Tellqvist. I think he could be able to pull some magic out of a hat and give them hope for a playoff run. Phoenix can start looking from within the organization and see what Montoya is able to do, finally. Both win the trade.
Toronto claimed Marty Gerber from re-entry waivers. Just a way to keep the team competitive with Toskala out for the season. Still, why not play Pogge-Cujo? Pogge needs NHL experience and now would have been a good time. Good move from Ottawa to save some money. A meaningless move by the Leafs.
Dallas claimed Brandon Morrison from waivers; solid move to add depth, MUCH needed depth at center. He appears to be the kind to thrive in Dallas too.
Boston dealt Petteri Nokelainen to Anaheim for Steve Montador. Poor Nokelainen getting moved frequently in such short period of time. From Long Island, to Boston, to Anaheim. He is a fine player and has the tools to be a regular NHL’er. Not sure why the Ducks gave Montador up so easily either, but if he gets you such a return it was a good investment. Boston gets a solid, heart and soul depth d-man. Anaheim gets a prospect, an expandable one. Both win.
Calgary deals Brandon Prust, a 1st rounder, and Matt Lombardi to Phoenix for the much desired Olli Jokinen. At last Olli will play in the playoffs. Good for him! I think that this was a lame trade, to be honest. Yotes acquired Jokinen for nothing. Wasted over $4M for nothing this season. In the end it’s a fair trade for them, Boynton and Ballard for the afformentioned deal. Thing is, I don’t believe Lombardi is a top six forward. Occasionally he may be, but not consistently. Prust is a hard working youngster fit for the bottom six spots. And a 1st rounder is always valuable, especially with the way the Yotes have been drafting. Calgary on the other hand finally gets its wish in Olli Jokinen since last year. Gee, I wonder who pushed to make such a deal. Keenan, anyone? Olli will thrive in Calgary, and opponents should fear such a line-up. Calgary wins this trade.
Boston traded for aging Mark Recchi, and a 2nd rounder, for Matt Lashoff and Marty Karsums. Boston needed veteran experience going into the playoffs and Recchi provides it wonderfully for them. Tampa screwed up a lot, and they get two good young players. I think both got what they wanted, so…no one lost or won this trade.
Pittsburgh acquired aging Billy Guerin for a conditional draft pick. What could that darft pick be? We’ll find out in June. Penguins did an odd move here, though. Satan and Guerin have similar numbers. Both are different players, I know, but I don’t see the big need to have Guerin. He adds scoring depth, which is good, but will it ensure a playoff spot? No. I thought they both got below average deals.
Philadelphia traded Scottie Upshall, plus a 2nd rounder, for Dan Carcillo of the Coyotes. Umm…..why so much for a 3rd line agitator and average fighter who could score 10 goals a year? I didn’t get it. Yotes ripped Philly off for this one.
New York Rangers acquire towering forward Nik Antropov for a 2nd rounder and a conditional pick, which at this point could be a 1st rounder depending how the Rangers do from here on out and in the playoffs. I did not think Antropov was going to get much, but so many Leafs fans thought a 1st rounder and solid youngster would be the return. Toronto got something for a player they did not want. I have been saying for quite some time that the Rangers were too small a team. As much as I like Prucha, Dawes, Callahan, Gomez, and Drury, they are quite small. I never expected the Rangers to get Antropov thinking he’d be too expensive to acquire, but for such a deal he was well worth it. Now Antropov joins a quick team that needs some space to skate around. Rangers win the trade.
Rangers hit the newswire minutes later when the Coyotes sent Derek Morris to the Rangers for youngsters Nigel Dawes, Petr Prucha, and much disliked Dmitri Kalinin. Rangers get the defensive d-man that can do a lot of things and is steady. Personally I am not surprised the Rangers managed to acquire him since they were onto him for many years, since that famous rumor of Nedved to Calgary for Morris to make room for Amonte. Still, I am not big fan of tihs trade. The Coyotes added two skilled players that should fit right in with the rest of the youth in Phoenix. Finally the Yotes are consistent with their planning. I never quite understood their acquisition of Jokinen in the first place. Why get the guy from a Panthers team that was filled with youth only to have him again playing with a younger youth. Dawes may break out and have 40 point seasons. Prucha could find his scoring touch again and put 30 pucks over the crease’s red line. Thus, I am in no way liking such a deal when giving up two good young players for a UFA d-man that I do not see re-signing with the Rangers; though, anything can happen. Phoenix wins this trade.
Buffalo made a solid attempt to acquire Dominic Moore for a 2nd round draft pick. Honestly, what will Moore do for this team to make them much better I don’t know. Moore was a very solid Rangers draft pick, well schooled in the Rangers system, but his only problem was that he had a snotty Harvard attitude and filed for arbitration when he deserved 4th line salary. Rangers showed him the door. Again, Moore thinks he is so smart that one productive season would result in a multi-million dollar contract. I….don’t…think….so. GM Burke probably laughed and gladly traded him. Sabres got a solid center, and probably insurence depth in case Connolly (ridiculous contract renewal by the way) gets injured. I don’t think Moore will continue to be as good on Buffalo. Yet, I’ve been wrong so many times that all is possible. Still, a 2nd rounder for him? That’s a good deal for the Leafs, but not such a loss for the Sabres; especially considering they got a 2nd rounder for Ales Kotalik. Now wait a minute, I say. Would you trade Ales Kotalik for Dominic Moore? I wouldn’t. Leafs win.
Anaheim made a very good move in acquiring Eric Christensen from the mismanaged Thrashers. Atlanta gets a prospect (and dear God they’re good at developing them!), and the Ducks get a young winger that to me has the potential to be a 25 goal scorer. I love Eric’s shot. His release is uncanny and I was surprised he couldn’t pull it off in snowy Atlanta (yes it snowed there recently). Eric with the skilled youngsters in Anaheim? I’d say he can do it. Anaheim wins this trade. Atlanta failed to develop the Hossa players.
Florida got everybody in a frenzy. While rumor mongers in the media bet their money on Jay Bouwmeester getting traded, and Eklund even stressing it many times he would and should, I, along with a number of Panthers fans, felt strongly that he was not going to get traded. Think about it. The only blockbuster deal, per se, was Olli Jokinen to the Flames. The better defenseman trade was Morris to the Rangers. Would any team have given up a bit more than that? No. If the Flyers were truly talking to the Cats, then GM Martin held his ground and set a non-negotiable price tag. Why not? Why give up Jay Bo now with a playoff push for the first time in years, and get a return that without a doubt would not equate to Jay Bo’s on-ice value? If you remember, my last article speculated that Jay Bo would not be traded until later in June. I think I will be right. Thing is DeBoer has been an impact coach and one that has his players following him. You never know what can happen in the playoffs, but if good things happen for the Panthers, Jay Bo could stay. Now, getting back to the original message of this segment. The Panthers acquired Steve Eminger by giving up a very unused Noah Welch and a 3rd rounder. Eminger is without a doubt a solid defenseman. Providing a bit of offense, and plays with a bit of an edge, Eminger is a good pick up for the Panthers future; adding depth in case Nick Boynton leaves, and/or Jay Bo. Tampa gets a project in Welch and a solid 3rd rounder. Yet, what was the purpose of this trade for Tampa when Eminger was doing fine for them? Beats me. Panthers win.
San Jose sent Kyle McLaren to Philly for a 6th round draft pick. Why would the Flyers be interested in a d-man that marginally plays in the NHL? I don’t know. Can’t say the Sharks won this trade with a late rounder, I guess no one did, but it made no sense to me.
Chicago made themselves ready in acquiring Sammy Pahlsson for James Wisniewsky. The Ducks were in desperate need of d-men, and are in need of d-men for next season as well. Solid move by both sides. Pahlsson makes the Hawks THAT much better for playoffs hockey. Both teams win.
The three-way deal was confusing. Is Justin Williams much better than Pat O’Sullivan in LA? I don’t think so. Why on earth would the Canes pass up on a young talented player and acquire an upcoming UFA player in Erik Cole? Beats me. One last question. What did the Oilers give to these two teams as a drug to make such a stupid trade?
Edmonton furthered improved the team by acquiring Kotalik by spending a 2nd rounder to Buffalo. Consider it that they got Kotalik for free since they acquired a 2nd rounder along with O’Sully. The Oilers made some slick moves….excellent moves. Thumbs up.
Toronto finally makes a trade that is completely meaningless. The rights to Kolzig and some other dudes in the deal. I understand Toskala is out. I understand Kolzig is also done for the year if I am correct? What….ev. No one wins this stupid trade.
I have to say that this was definitely the WORST trade deadline in recent history. The general managers got shy and did not want to be creative. Rangers made some interesting moves, and although I am not fond of the Morris deal, this trade opens a new direction for the Rangers by bringing in Sean Avery and Mark Bell on the ice. Morris, Antropov, Avery, and Bell for Kalinin, Dawes, Prucha, and two draft picks? Looks promising. The Oilers made the slickest moves I think. Kotalik and O’Sullivan on the Oilers? Awsome. Edmonton just got THAT much better. I like the Panthers NOT trading Jay Bo and actually strengthening the defense. A lot of people forget about Bryan Allen too. At least these guys had some creativity. As for the rest…..shamefull.
Enjoy the rest of the seasons folks! Thanks for reading as always,
Micki Peroni
Vice-Administrator
24 Responses to I'm Glad To Have Missed It
Leave a Reply
You must be to post a comment.
Well at least there's been a big name forward moved each of the last three years with Jokinen, Richards, and Smyth!
And they did set a record today for most players swapped with 47, unfortuneatly they also probably set the record for most minor leagues swapped since thats what half those guys were.
Ya it would have been nice to see one of Bouwmeester, Pronger, or Kaberle moved. What happened with Chris Neil? Why didn't Arnason get dealt he's a UFA and Colorado was clearly selling.
You are right it was a let down of a day.
It was all about the cap this year. So many teams were tight to the cap that it is hard to make high impact deals for your team, without risking the chemistry of the team. It has nothing to do with lack of creativity. The cap is a huge issue, along with the economy as it is predicted the camp will only go up by about 1 million for next season meaning alot of teams can't go out and mortgage the farm by aquiring picks. The cap will most likely be decreasing for a few years after next season which makes these picks much more important than any time before. Now to offer my opinions
Columbus/Ottawa deal – I basically agree with what you said there.
Colorado/Calgary deal – Calgary wins because they got want they wanted. However no one was going to give a 1st for Leopold and the Av's were looking to lost salary and get picks, which they did here.
Phoenix – Pheonix did everything right today, good for them. I disagree about you questioning their pick up of Jokien however. He was brought in to lead the charge of the youth movement as it was expected they were gonna boom this year and Jokien was suppose to be the man. Little did they know he's terrible with youth, and is not a good lockerroom leader which hurts a young team.
Toronto moves – They get Gerber for the rest of the year which is good because you really do not want to have Pogge run with it the rest if the season with the possibility that the team could be gutted more than it was. Solid move by Burke to make sure his team still competes and the young guys develop by not getting killed everynight. So it is a very meaningful move. As was trading Antropov for a 2nd and a conditional believed to be a 2010 3rd rounder if NYR makes the playoffs this year, 4th rounder if not. Moore while having a great season is not worth what he was asking. No third line player should get what he wanted especially after it was the only season he scored more than 20 points ever. The final move with Tampa was basically Burke paying the salaries of those players for the remainder of the season to help tampa out in exchange for a 4th rounder. Nothing big but Burke did what he wanted to do. Leafs win.
Boston did well – acquired depth and experience so Chemistry was not harmed.
Philly – Every deadline they seem to get player like this. And every year they over pay. While he is a good player its very odd he got that much. However Solid depth move with little wiggleroom by Philly. Yotes get another good return. Philly also adds Mclaren for basically nothing which is a solid depth move. He has some experience.
Rangers did ok. It'll be nice to see big Nik in another setting to see what kind of player he actually is. Morris helps them alot. Gave up some stuff but really all expendable players.
Buffalo – Moore is for sure a rental. If they did not want to pay some of their other players they are not going to pay Moores asking price this offseason. I basically shrug my shoulders with the Kotalik deal. Does not matter too much.
Ducks tweaked – moved a little salary out which they wanted. Nothing major but helpul to the franchise.
The three way. I was kinda surprised with this deal as O'sully I thought was just coming into his own this season. Williams is more established and does fit LA style but I am kinda surprised the Canes moved him. They do get a favorite back in Cole though.
While this deadline did lack much of the excitement from years past I think this just means this years offseason and draft in particular will be very exciting for us which i am happy about.
Ya i gotta agree, this was a great deal for the Oilers, I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking it.
Eric Cole is underacheiving this year and is UFA in the summer.
Patty O is a really good young player, lots of talent there
Justin Williams is a really solid player (when healthy which is half the time)
So HOW in the world do the Oilers come away with the best (most valuable) player in the deal, and the 2nd round pick???!!! Way to go Kevin Lowe.
I have to partly agree with your comments here. Essentially Buffalo moved Kotalik for Moore. Not a terrible move, when you consider they're getting a different type of player here.
Regeir was talking about bringing in Moore before tonights Habs-Sabres game and he said he needed help at face-offs and wanted a grittier player, so I guess there wasn't a ton out there today, Pahlsson went to Chicago, what other 3rd line centres were available? So he brought in Moore.
Moving Kotalik doesn't hurt the Sabres, he's a pretty talented, quick guy, but he doesn't move the puck around like the rest of the team, he's a 'chucker'. Every time he gets the puck (a lot of the time) he'll just shoot from all different angles, hes a play killer. The Sabres will be pressuring, cycling the puck and then it comes to Kotalik and 3 seconds later the opposing team has it and they're working on their breakout.
He could be a fit in Edmonton though who work really well on the rush.
Sorry I'm just reading your article backwards and responding one section at a time.
You are right, the Rangers won the Antropov deal. This is the type of player they needed, and he immediately becomes the teams leading goal scorer, and Antropov got his goals this year for the most part by doing his thing in front of the net, tipping in point shots, driving to the net for rebounds, etc. He will be a great guy to stand in front of the net for the Rangers PP.
Unless that conditional pick turns into a 1st I'm pissed off to lose Nik for that. I wish they had just signed him to an extension, say 4 years $16 million.
I hope Burke changes his mind about Nik and tries to lure him back in the summer, maybe Nik won't sell his house and his kids go to school here, we could get him back.
Just for the record, my team in the East is now the Rangers (like for the playoffs). I want to see Nik Antropov hoist the Stanley Cup.
I HEART 80
GO RANGERS!!!
The last Toronto trade was definitely more minor but it made a little bit of sense. Toronto wanted the 4th rounder and what I hear is a decent but oft-injured defensive prospect in Andy Rogers. In order to get those 2 things they had to take some salary off of Tampa's hands which the leafs have no problem doing. Kolzig will likely retire and Heward won't be resigned it was strictly a salary dump. As for the Leafs throwing in some Petiot guy who has probably little value to anybody, they had to throw in at least one player in the trade to get it confirmed by the league.
Basically they are bringing in youth for taking a little bit of money back. I was pretty disappointed that they didn't trade Poni, I saw a couple of reports of him going to Nashville for a couple of picks. I was all excited because a few picks, as much as I like the guy, would be pretty valuable, and then poof my dreams were crushed when I flipped to a credible station (TSN) to find out it did not happen.
1) Erik Cole, though disappointing, played well with Erik Staal do not forget. Rutherford wanted to reunite the two to light the spark they had in Carolina. Justin Williams was expendable because he was injured, and O'Sullivan is a good player and decent pickup by Los Angeles. So Carolina also got a second I believe, so I believe they won the deal. Erik Cole/Staal could be interesting.
It is obvious that Toronto have seen enough of Pogge to know that he is not ready so they got Gerber.
I like the trade by the Flyers, they have enough scoring but with Carcillo they get some nasty back, nobody will want to play them in the playoffs.
LA looks to me to come in 3rd in those trades, giving up a 2nd and the most talented of the 3.
SJ gets Moen and Huskins are now the front runners for the Cup.
Chicago get s Pahlsson improves their stock alot.
Anaheim were the big losers of the day by far, they gave away half of their team and got very little in return. I guess 1 Murray ruining a team wasn't enough.
Ciao Micki,
Come stai e come va l’universita? Spero tutto bene. Poi, al punto.
I am not a big fan of what Pittsburgh did, but you have to think it’s an improvement over Satan, who by the way has been assigned to the Baby Pens for now. The conditional pick for the aging Guerin, a free agent at that at season’s end, is a little high…but it is still reasonable considering the outcome. It’s a 5th if they miss the playoffs, 4th if they make it, and 3rd if they get past the 1st round. What it comes down to is that both the Isles and Pens are banking on Guerin and the Pens doing much better from here on out.
Looking in straight comparison, Satan has been a total waste of a uniform in Pittsburgh. Most of his goals have been on the power play and hardly none of any importance. No grit, no leadership, no defensive effort (or just about) and no goals…at least not for what he should be scoring considering his pedigree. Guerin on the other hand, has been playing for the worst team in the entire NHL, bar none. Yes he could be doing better, but considering his supporting cast, his output is reasonable. At 38 Guerin needs a good center and players around him to be effective, and the Penguins seemingly have that. He is also a big upgrade in leadership and grit from Satan, therefore even if they both continued at the same pace of offensive output, Guerin brings other aspects that Satan lacks.
However, this has been branded by everyone in Pittsburgh’s organization as Sid’s linemate, and I am not fully convinced that he can be as effective as they think with Crosby. Their thought is that they need a Malone type player, and although they are somewhat comparable players, Malone is a heck of a lot faster than the aging Guerin and Sidney plays way up-tempo of a game that I am not so sure that Guerin will be able to catch up to be of help. In fact, I think that he would be more effective with Malkin which would be useless because breaking up Malkin’s line to put in Guerin and yielding the same output is simply nonsense.
We will have to wait and see if Guerin can be as effective as expected with Crosby, but regardless, it was an upgrade on Satan, especially if we keep in mind that he has not even been playing with Crosby, but on the 4th line. I see Dupuis and Staal now on the same line and Crosby, Kunitz and Guerin (if he can get there) on the 1A line for now, but if things go as I suspect, it will end up Dupuis, Crosby, Kunitz; Malkin, Sykora, Cooke; Kennedy, Staal, Guerin; Fedotenko, Talbot, Goddard/Adams. Not the best lineup, but the one thing they do have is a scoring threat in every line.
Still an uphill battle, but it is quite reasonable to see them making the playoffs and even winning in the first round against any team in the east, other than New Jersey IMO. They need Alexei Morozov to beat Marty and company for that.
I agree on the Philly trade….Don't know what Homer was thinkin. I posted the article titling this trade the Worst Trade of the Deadline. People are saying that carcillo is an agitator and will be a plus in the playoffs, but how can you tell me he is worth Upshall AND a 2nd! Not to mention, Scottie was a high energy player who laid big hits and pestered other teams as well…Philly got ROBBED!
And the last thing they needed was a guy who take a lot of bad penalties. Their already the most penalized team in the league….there is no logic to this trade. If iot was a Salary cap issue, they should have traded scottie and the 2nd for another defenseman or trade just scottie for a pick. Instead they have to pay this carcillo guy next season as well.
BAAAAAAAADD MOVE!
I agree the Flyers did give up maybe too much, I would have thought Upshall for Carcillo would have been enough. But the fact is Upshall would not have been signed next year anyways, plus you get a guy who is nasty yes he may take the odd dumb penalty but I am telling you nobody wants to play the Flyers in the playoffs right now, every team in the East just went aw f*ck when that trade was made and yeah you do have to pay him next season but he is cheap @ well under a million. Why not sit back and wait until after the playoffs to give judgement?
Also, instead of complaining about this trade you should be complaining about the long term future of your team because Holmgern may have royally f*cked it up with his Brierre, Hartnell, and Timonen signings, plus you have no goalie for next season and to get a real good one you have to give up big money, with the Cap going down after next season the Flyers may be in big trouble.
I think the Rangers Phoenix trade was a win-win. Petr Prucha has played like 15 games this season. There is very little chance he gets signed in the offseason because we have cap issues like you wouldn't believe. With Avery acquired and now Antropov, Prucha Voros and probably Dawes/Korpikoski were the candidates to be shuffling in and out of the lineup. Nigel Dawes is also an RFA to be and his biggest asset are his hands but he was so inconsistent. He is great in the shootout but no one bothers to use him there and he can score on the Brodeur but with Avery back, Marty has other things to worry about. And we got rid of Kalinin. With the exception of not getting rid of Redden or Roszival, and not acquiring may be another goalie (lets face it if Henrik goes down we are SOL) we accomplished our two biggest objectives.
Antropov and Morris are rentals but you're right, the bottom line (for this season) is this:
Morris is an upgrade on Kalinin
Avery is an upgrade on Dawes
Antropov is an upgrade on Prucha
Good luck Rangers
I disagree. I think the ducks did exactly what they wanted to do. Dump as much salary as possible.
I really thought he did well of clearing salary, and getting picks, and or prospects, or talented young players.
Sure he dumped a bunch of salary but the returns he got are not that impressive in my view.
They did not have to be. As you can see by how the day went there was not a huge market when it came to main stream prospects or good picks going places for the most part. The ducks have alot of work to do on their defense this offseason and this allows them to shed some salary the rest of the year to save actual money, and will allow them to spend later.
James Wisniewski is an excellent young d-man. top 4 potential, tough body, hits hard, and has the ability to move the puck. And Peteri Kontiola has #2 center written all over him. Him and Getzlaf will be a solid 1-2 punch for years to come. Chicago gets the depth they needed down the middle, but if they don't make a good run or resign Pahlsson, the Ducks win the trade IMO.
Briere was a bad signing, indeed, but Timonen is a top 10, heck maybe even top 5 d-man in the NHL and Hartnell is having a career year. Timonen and Hartnell were good signings. Maybe 500K too much for Hartnell but still, he's a great player for Philly.
This trade was made for exactly the same reasons Gary Roberts was traded for a couple years back. Leadership and Toughness. But Guerin does have more of a goal scoring history than Gary did, and Crosby (being the player he is) can elevate his teammates better then anybody in the game.
Only time will tell what Guerin can do with Crosby, but I don't think that there is much risk involved in this trade. They didn't give up either of their top two picks and they needed to add that net presence and toughness that Guerin brings if they wanted to make any noise in the playoffs. This team has the ability to win IF all the pieces of the puzzle come together correctly. Fleury has the ability to play better(as seen last season) and you can never count a team with Crosby & Malkin on it out until they're out.
when this trade went down, I thought it was the beginning of a bigger trade. everyone was saying that philly and vancouver were in the running for bouwmeester, so the insane leafs fan in me saw exactly what Brian Burke wanted for Tomas Kaberle after Bouwmeester was pulled off the market. A girtty, cheap, NHL ready forward (Carcillo) a top prospect, and an available first round pick.
In reality though, Holmgren must have figured that Carcillo was a fair replacement for Upshall, and this saves him the hassle of having to resign Upshall, or be forced to trade him in the summer when he has no value.
Nobody got good returns. So the ducks did their best and got rid of a couple guys. Shook things up a bit, but the core of that team is Ryan, Getzlaf, and Perry up front, the rest of the pieces can be replaced.