Kadri-Carlyle Will Not Work

It appears all but certain that Maple Leafs general manager David Nonis will have to make a decision before the National Hockey League trade deadline this year:

Nazem Kadri or Randy Carlyle.

Should Nonis choose Door No. 1 – to retain Kadri and continue his development – he’ll almost certainly have to find a new coach. If it’s Door No. 2, and Carlyle remains behind the Leafs bench beyond this season, Kadri will pack up and be out of town on or before Mar. 5.

There seems to be no other way.

Carlyle made it clear on the HBO 24/7 series that he and Kadri are at lager-heads. “He thinks he’s a number-one [center] but he isn’t,” scoffed the coach. “He has a rather inflated opinion of himself.”

After a punishing skate on Sunday – and in the wake of Saturday night’s calamity against New York Rangers – there was more.

“[Kadri] seems to be in a bit of a funk,” offered Carlyle in a early bid for personal understatement-of-the-year. “He seems to be standing still in a lot of situations. He’s falling down a lot… I’ve never seem him fall down on the ice when he’s got 100 per cent possession of the puck. [On Saturday], at the blue line, he finds a way to fall down. He’s surprised and we’re surprised that those types of things are happening to him.


67 Responses to Kadri-Carlyle Will Not Work

  1. LN91 says:

    So, if Kadri has issues with a third coach…Is it his fault or the new coach’s?

    Applying this post to reality:

    If Carlyle is fired, the best option is Laviolette..Get a guy that has actually worked with a smaller, skilled player like Giroux. However, he also demands 100% so I doubt Kadri will like that.

    If Kadri also falls out with the new coach, time to kill the cancer that is dragging down this squad.

    • leafs_wallace93 says:

      Would you rather than Kassian or Hodgson?

      • LN91 says:

        What do you mean?

        • leafs_wallace93 says:

          Cody was a headache in Vancouver so they trade him for a piece that’s a good guy, that’s great and all put it created a hole a center. Are Vancouver better off with fan favorite type Kassian or Buffalo with a guy that isn’t perfect but can play the most important position?

          Should Nonis just trade Kadri for a decent piece that isn’t really fit?

          What do you suggest the Leafs do with Kadri?

          • LN91 says:

            I do not believe Cody was a headache in Vancouver, the issue was the Canucks were run over by Milan Lucic and they were looking for a PF to kind of comepete in the playoffs with. All Canucks fans knew it was stupid, but they did it to compete.

            Also, Hodgson has not been dynamic since the trade happened so it’s not a complete failure.

            I would see if you can trade him as a piece for an elite player that suits this squad better.

            • leafs_wallace93 says:

              Gillis said on the record that it was a nightmare dealing with Cody and his parents and that’s why he traded him. Soooo, Lucic, what??? Kassian makes the Canucks tough to shutdown wingers even though wingers cover blueliners… ? Is that advanced stats, maybe I’m dumb.

              We’re not getting a 1c for Kadri, so would you off him for another winger remains the question.

              • LN91 says:

                A center, or even an elite second-line center would be available eventually.

                I actually would prefer finding a two-way, elite defensive second-line center over a 1C actually. The Leafs might have a bigger need for that.

  2. leafy says:

    I think Carlyle should be fired no matter what. Kadri or no Kadri.

    It’s not Carlyle’s fault? How we gonna know if we don’t try something else? They can’t possibly play any worse, getting outshot and outchanced game after game. It’s not an expansion team. They should be playing a lot better.

    • realistic_leafs_fan says:

      I honestly think it runs deeper than Carlyle, Leafy. Although I am not thrilled with all of Carlyle’s decisions, this team just doesn’t seem to get it…and there has been minimal player changes since the departure of Wilson. I just don’t think we have the right chemistry yet. Kadri is not helping. If he thinks he is a number 1 centre…then play like one. Don’t sulk, it’s not like he hasn’t been given the opportunity.
      JVR, Kessel, Lupul, Franson, Gardiner, Raymond, Dion etc need to be more consistent with there play and effort.
      I think we need some more new blood. Carlyle has made us a playoff team where Wilson wasn’t even close. I just don’t believe it’s all Carlyle.

      • reinjosh says:

        Minimal player changes since Wilson? Uh…

        Bernier, JVR, Clarkson, Raymond, Ranger, Rielly, McClement, Bolland, Holland in.

        Schenn, Frattin, Scrivens, Grabovski, MacArthur, Komisarek, Colborne out.

        Those are some pretty big changes…

        Carlyle isn’t getting things done. It might be inconsistencies with players but the coaches job is to coach that out of them and he’s not doing that. On paper, adding Bernier, Bolland, Clarkson should have made us better, even in a small way. It hasn’t.

        As far as I’m concerned, this is all Carlyle. Sorry but he’s not getting a pass of any kind. He’s had player problems in Anaheim, and is having player problems here.

        Grabovski had issues with him and he’s playing much better. MacArthur too, and same story.

        Hiring Carlyle was a mistake. It always was. Fortunately he was never Nonis’s coach. It’s time to cut the cord of one of Burke’s last ties to this team.

        • realistic_leafs_fan says:

          I understand your point on changes, but except for JVR and McClement, the rest were added this season and Wilson never had to deal with what Carlyle has in the injury department.
          Bolland has played minimal games. Clarkson 12 games suspended. Rielly a rookie with one of the worst +/- on the team. Ranger has been very inconsistent. Raymond is having the kind of year Kulimen did with Wilson. Riemer and Scrivins were definitely not the problem when Wilson was here.
          Except for JVR…what is the real big change that Carlyle has had to work with. I mean, I like Bernier’s overall game better than Riemer’s, but if it was still Riemer and Scrivins…would we have a lot less wins?

          • realistic_leafs_fan says:

            For the record, when I said minimal changes, it was in reference to how long Carlyle has been here and the amount of changes to personnel. This is his third season he has been here with 2 off-seasons to make moves and 1 1/2 played seasons to make moves. In that time the Leafs have made one big trade(JVR) one medium/high one (Bernier), one medium(Bolland) and a few minor ones with one big name free agent(Clarkson). Hardly call that big changes.
            Plus Carlyle has only coached just over 100 gms in Toronto compared to Wilson who coached over 300, yet Carlyle is 53-43-13 (a pretty decent winning record) where Wilson had a losing record. Hard to blame the coach totally.imo

            • reinjosh says:

              Again I actually really disagree with you. What I see in the things you pointed out, is a talented roster that is inconsistent. And that’s a coaching issue, not a player issue. This team is a playoff roster without a doubt in my mind. Nonis went into this season and improved two things for us, center depth and goaltending. That should by all accounts, improve the team’s record. We currently have more losses now than we did last year in 4 less games this year.

              Injuries? I guess but honestly I see that as a cop out excuse. We haven’t really been hit that hard. A good coach can deal with that. Carlyle has not.

              All I see is a coach that struggles to take a talented roster and make it a playoff team. I honestly don’t think you can do anything BUT blame the coach. There is too many incidents in his past of player problems. Lupul improved in his absence. MacArthur and Grabo have both improved in his absence.

              I think we can blame this coach. He’s been given a pretty talented roster and he’s doing very little with it.

              It’s unacceptable. He’s really just not a good coach.

              • realistic_leafs_fan says:

                I am not saying Carlyle is perfect by any means, but to firs him after 110 games with a winning record is over reactive. I believe Lupul actually has his best ppg under Carlyle.
                Was it Carlyle’s fault Bernier was bad last night?
                Yes, Nonis improved centre depth with Bolland…and when Bolland was healthy, the Leafs were doing well. Holland was brought in because Bolland and Bozak were hurt and the golden boy Kadri, wasn’t getting the job done.(Although I liked his game last night).
                With Bolland, Bozak and Smith out…the depth you speak of is Kadri, Holland, McClement and Smithson. Honestly, what team wins with that “depth” down the middle. Also, as I have said many times, our D is just not good enough. A coach can only do so much. Does he need to motivate them better? Definitely. Does he have to get them to play his system better? For sure. This is all the same things said before Carlyle got here though, which starts to point to personnel.
                Lupul, Phaneuf, Gunnar, Kessel, Kulimen, Orr…these guys have been here a while and no matter who we have added, the same old story exists regarding getting out worked and not playing the system the coach puts in place. Blame the coach if you want. Ultimately it’s the players that have to want to compete.

        • doorman says:

          This could come across the wrong way lol, but josh who would you replace him with? Do you go interm and relook in off season or go with best avail now?

  3. LN91 says:

    Dear Phaneuf supporters,

    What’s your opinion about Team Canada viewing Marc Edouard Vlasic and Dan Hamhuis as better left-handed defencemen then Phaneuf?

    • leafs_wallace93 says:

      Is Hamhuis even the best blueliner on the Canucks? Obviously he’s better as a deepth role to give Canada another dimension. Dion isn’t better in his own end or skates better than Hamhuis but Dion is better on offense. Dion wouldn’t see PP time on team Canada and so he’d be useless.

      It’s bad comparison and ignores context.

      As for Vlasic, remember when SJ offered him for Kaberle and Burke laughed at it during Kaberle’s summer trade window. Well let’s hope Percy turns out to be real good.

  4. mapleleafsfan says:

    Yzerman is new. Kunitz is a disaster choice. But if you’re going off of chemistry, why pick Hamhuis or Vlasic over Seabrook? Jeff Carter, Rick Nash and Kunitz have no place on this team over Giroux and St louis. I’d take Hall over any of those three as well. Not happy.

    • LN91 says:

      Yzerman wanted 4 right and 4 left handed D-Men.

      The other 4 R D were Subban, Pietrangelo, Doughty, and Shea Weber. Hard to top those 4!

      • mapleleafsfan says:

        Could make the same arguments about wingers, but Kunitz got picked. Makes no sense. If Crosby gets injured we waste a roster spot on some coat tail riding plug.

        • LN91 says:

          I’m more confused about St. Louis.

          Art Ross last year, keeping TBL alive without Stamkos, tremendous player…Heart/Soul of Tampa, great lockeroom guy and leader.

          Yet, you keep him off? By your GM of all people? For Nash? Who is a constant loser.

          • mapleleafsfan says:

            Agreed. I also think Carter over Giroux is brutal too. Giroux is fast as hell, and one of the top scorers in the league the past few seasons. Carter is an average player with a wicked shot. Makes 0 sense. If Giroux is there imagine the speed with Crosby, Duchene, Giroux, Marleau (debatable pick IMO) and Stammer. That’s what will win on big ice

          • leafs_wallace93 says:

            Nash has been getting a free pass his whole career for two reasons, his size and he scores a couple of really pretty goals here and there.

            Same with Giroux, people talked about him being a top five player a couple of years ago because he can showboat when he stickhandles.

            • mapleleafsfan says:

              I disagree with the Nash/Giroux Comparison. Giroux has actually gone far in the playoffs, and really elevates his game when it matters. Giroux is also one of the highest scorers in the league the past 3 years. He’s a little overly flashy, and may get overrated – but he’s got way more compete than Nash. He should be on the team.

    • lafleur10 says:

      i’d take eberle over those guys as well can’t believe he didn’t make

      • mapleleafsfan says:

        I disagree actually. There’s 0 reason Eberle should be on the team. His defensive ability makes Kessel look like Bergeron, and he hardly puts up enough points to justify bumping anyone else. If anything I’d take Hall, but wouldn’t take either to be honest.

  5. doorman says:

    I think Bernier will be a solid number 1. I also think Reimer has that ability. Less the puck handling also could use glove work and better rebound control, but the guys a winner and good guy. Kadri as well as many others need to show more for sure. Kadri needs to show he wants it or nobody might be willing to take a chance on him. Talent or not coaches want guys who compete and take accountability.

    Not sure what to do with the coach really. He did take us to the playoffs so Nonis hire or not that gets him a free pass this year. If however this is the same old song and dance, well next year will be bye bye. Question becomes who steps in and do you weigh this on if you are rebuilding or looking to compete now?

  6. TmLeafan says:

    Not too many complaints about Team Canada. Glad St Louis and Giroux didn’t make it and they picked Jamie Benn. Surprised about Carter and Marleau but its clear they wanted players who had size and speed you can’t deny Carter and Marleau have plenty of that.

    I originally didn’t want Kunitz on the team but he can play a game where he is fast and physical, similar to Mike Richards in 2010 expect he is a natural winger and has chemistry with Crosby.

    Don’t like the Mike Smith pick, I suppose it doesn’t matter but I would prefer Bernier.

    • mapleleafsfan says:

      I see 0 argument for no St Louis. The guy is a great leader, won the Art Ross last year, almost PPG this year without Stamkos, sees the ice amazingly, has speed, has chemistry with Stamkos – is on another stratosphere than friggen kunitz. It just makes no sense. If he was a decade younger with the exact same skill-set he’d be on the team. Rick Nash making it over him is a joke. You don’t need physical players in the olympics. On Euro ice with euro refs our physical guys are going to take way too many penalties just like we do in the world jrs. It was a dumb decision and too much stock is put into “playing Canadian hockey”. That style works in a grinding 7 game series, not in a single knock out Olympics.

      • leafs_wallace93 says:

        Nash has size but does he use it? He’s Joe Colbourne soft, he doesn’t crash the boards. It’s kind of embarrassing to see someone that big play so little.

        They’re polar opposites, St.Louis has little man syndrome, he needs to perform to get noticed. St.Louis somehow seems to get better each year whereas Nash is on the verge of being washed up. Nash is the poster child for useless privileged jock.

      • TmLeafan says:

        zero argument? the guy is 5’6 and lots of skill on a team that already has enough skill. Playing Canadian hockey doesn’t work? Worked in 2010 just fine with no St. Louis.

        The world Juniors lost because despite what TSN rams down our throats they are plain and simple not that good. Nothing to do with the style of hockey. Who the hell is Josh Leier? He was on our top line this year. We are not dealing with overrated 18 year olds we are dealing with established professionals.

        St. Louis isn’t going to play on the top 2 or even top 3 lines I would way rather have Jeff Carter who is faster than St. Louis, better shot, way bigger and more menacing down low. Say you are Kevin Shattenkirk for example who would you rather deal with?

        If Canada wins it will be because we are way bigger and faster than everyone else and other teams cant deal with it down low, exactly like in 2010 when Canada Russia was a pickem game and the game was over in the first 10 minutes because we were relentless down low.

        Everyone complaining about no Giroux either why would you bring him to play on the 4th line when he is small and would be playing out of position?

        • mapleleafsfan says:

          Either of those players are leagues ahead of Kunitz. Say Crosby gets injured, now there are two holes in our lineup because Kunitz is a downgrade on anybody cut if he’s not with Sid. Not to mention they are both better than Carter and Nash.

          Carter menacing? Really? That guy hasn’t intimidated anyone since kindergarten. He’s about as intimidating as Joe Colborne (and actually has less hits). I’m off one-trick pony Carter. And they add Nash on top of that?

          Yes, it worked in 2010. And do you know what was great about 2010? North American Ice. Huge difference for our “grinder” players.

          As for Giroux, he’s a top 3-4 scorer in the league in the past 4 years. He IS the skill guy. Giroux would be a top 6 winger no problem. The guys a winner and straight up crushed Crosby in the playoffs. He elevates his game like no other. But no, let’s take 0.5 playoff ppg Rick Nash instead lol.

          Either way. Obviously I hope I’m wrong.

          • TmLeafan says:

            Jeff Carter is menacing in the sense that he is faster and bigger than St. Louis and Giroux. Like you said it’s international hockey I wasn’t trying to imply he was overly physical or intimidating. Canada wants to overwhelm teams with size and speed that is clearly what they were thinking when they named Marleau and Carter over Giroux and St. Louis. I agree with it, you obviously don’t.

            Ya bigger ice, Jeff Carter and Marleau are both faster than Giroux and St. Louis which reinforces my point. I hear what you are saying about Nash but again he is a natural winger unlike Giroux and he has been amazing each time he has ever played for Canada. He probably sneaked on the team with his play the last few weeks which has been way better than the start of the season when he was recovering from a concussion.

            Chris Kunitz has been a good player for a long time even without Crosby. He is a good skater who gets in on the forecheck. I’m not overly excited about the pick but he plays a simple game and you need a few guys like that, the fact that he has chemistry with Sid is just a bonus.

            Claude Giroux had a good playoff series once and is a good player but he is essentially Kadri with dress pants on.

            • mapleleafsfan says:

              Giroux is crazy fast. His skill set is almost perfect for the large ice, and he was drafted as a winger, not a Center. He plays with an edge as well. The Kadri comparison is fine, but he’s a Kadri who hit potential and works his ass off.

              Giroux also had much more than one good playoff round. He was almost PPG in their long playoff run, over PPG the year after and then completely ignited Crosby and the Pens.

              Anyways, Team Canada agrees with you and who am I to judge. I trust Stevie Y knows a little more about hockey than I do. I really disagree with the decisions but really I hope I’m wrong.

        • LN91 says:

          Bigger does not always mean ‘tougher’..Yeah, Rick Nash is huge, but I also know that a way smaller TJ Oshie will play a tougher game for the Canadians to deal with.

          The World Juniors lost because they did not select the right players because they tried to get equal participation amongst the CHL.

          Yeah, who the hell is Taylor Leier? Some unknown from the WHL. Why were a bunch of unknowns in this squad? I don’t know. They probably could have created a better squad of players they left off as opposed to the players they brought.

        • mapleleafsfan says:

          I also think the juniors are that good, they just underachieve (maybe pressure). Taylor Leier is captain of the Portland Winterhawks who are a top 3 team in the WHL. He’s top 25 in the league in scoring. Nothing incredible, but he’s solid.

          We have the top player from last years draft (that’s playing), 2 of the top few from this year (Ekblad and Reinhart), the top next year in McDavid (who was really underwhelming). On top of a bunch of guys who have been drafted really high already. On paper, they are the best team in the tournament. They just clearly don’t play like it.

          • reinjosh says:

            Actually the best team on paper this year was Sweden, by a mile. It was even close to be honest. They were the heavy favorites going into the tourney.

            • mapleleafsfan says:

              That’s not true at all. Sweden had an edge on Goaltending, and MAYBE a slight edge on offence, but their D wasn’t even comparable. They have players used to the big ice, and home ice advantage but it’s a huge stretch to say they had more talent.

              Who called Sweden Favourites? TSN after pre season? Vegas had odds heavily favouring Canada.

    • lafleur10 says:

      they went the 3 best goaltenders price,loungo,smith bernier is a shade below them all … he doesn’thave the pedigree that those 3 have that’s why he isn’t on there

      • TmLeafan says:

        Ya a shade below them all?

        Bernier: 13 Wins SV %.928 GA: 2.53 SO:1
        Smith: 15 Wins SV % .911 GA: 2.89 SO: 0
        Price: 20 Wins SV % .928 GA 2.22 SO: 2
        Luongo: 16 Wins SV % .922 GA:2.23 SO: 3

        His stats are significantly better than Smith’s. Not to mention Phoenix play the trap system. Meanwhile nobody really knows what kind of system the Leafs are playing lately but it has lead to Bernier getting peppered every night. What has Mike Smith ever done?

        Bernier is simply the better goalie. Normally the 3rd goalie doesn’t matter but Price and Luongo both have a history of choking. Now I am a Carey Price fan but he is hot or cold he looks terrible at times.

        • TmLeafan says:

          Also Bernier has shown he can handle pressure. Played well at the World Championships a while back and he is the starter for the Leafs, that is significant pressure.

      • reinjosh says:

        Not going to add to the stats, as Bernier has been much, much better than Smith, but he’s got the better pedigree too.

        Bernier was drafted 11th overall, Smith 161st overall. Bernier has also represented Canada internationally before, and Smith has not. Granted it was two games at the 2008 WJC’s but it’s more than Smith.

        So Smith doesn’t have pedigree on Bernier either…

    • lafleur10 says:

      they went the 3 best goaltenders price,loungo,smith bernier is a shade below them all … he doesn’thave the pedigree that those 3 have that’s why he isn’t on there

      • mapleleafsfan says:

        Lafleur, I hope for the sake of team Canada you’re right. If Price has a meltdown you will never hear the end of it.

      • leafy says:

        Put Bernier (or Reimer) on a team that faces 27 shots and they’re all stars.

        • Like last night on 24 shots? I know they’ve been playing good, but it’s pretty understandable why they he was left off the team. While Mike Smith hasn’t been great, he’s still done a lot more in his career and has a better reputation as a top goalie – whether he is a top goalie or not.

          Call it the system, call it bad judgment during the selection process, but I think most people would pick those 3 goalies. I personally would’ve chosen Fleury who is having a good year. He’s not known for a being a playoff performer, but this isn’t a best of series… And as a 3rd choice, I’d go with him over all the other goalies mentioned.

  7. LN91 says:

    Time to make Olympic hockey interesting and create the All-Snubbed team with the Olympic Rings flag to seek revenge:


    Sean Bergenhein, Finland (Who the hell is Juhamatti Altonen?)
    Logan Couture, Canada
    Claude Giroux, Canada
    Taylor Hall, Canada
    Patric Hornqvist, Sweden (Somehow, Jimmie Ericsson? was a better option)
    Jiri Hudler, Czech Republic (Petr Nedved is 42…And shows it)
    James Neal, Canada (Rick Nash?)
    Kyle Okposo, USA
    Bobby Ryan, USA
    Eric Staal, Canada
    Marty St. Louis, Canada
    Alexander Semin, Russia (GIVE UP ON THE KHL GUYS)
    Joe Thornton, Canada
    Radim Vrbata, Czech Republic (Who the hell did they select?)


    Dan Boyle, Canada- R
    Jonas Brodin, Sweden- L
    Mark Giordano, Canada- L
    Sergei Gonchar, Russia- R (Nikitin???)
    Victor Hedman, Sweden- L (Probably the worst snub by any country)
    Jack Johnson, USA- L
    Brent Seabrook, Canada- R
    Keith Yandle, USA- L


    Ben Bishop, USA
    Corey Crawford, Canada
    Corey Schneider, USA

  8. Gambo says:

    I wouldn’t mind Laviolette. Actually pretty inclined to having him. I’m now on board with the fire Carlyle team, definitely not close to as hostile with him as Wilson though. I don’t even want to hear those two compared. Carlyle is leagues ahead of Wilson.

  9. doorman says:

    Wasn’t able to catch the game or the highlights, but the Sports net article with a couple didn’t look good. That was a very winnable game. There are some def problems and as much as there have been gaffs goaltending isn’t one.

    • LN91 says:

      Goaltending was poor last night.

      However, that was a game the Leafs should have dominated and didn’t. The Islanders were on a back-to-back, did not arrive to TO until 4 am. in the morning, and were facing a bad goalie in Poulin.

      They only mustered 4 shots in the entire third period.

      I do not think it is a playoff squad, and what do you do from here?

      • leafy says:

        The goalies are probably suffering from learned helplessness. A huge barrage of shots every night and, since early November, limited goal support.

        • mapleleafsfan says:

          Reimer should also get a start. Bernier has been bad the past few games. Get Reimer in there. I think Bernier will ultimately be the better goalie, but the whole point of having a tandem is riding which ever one is hot, which Carlyle isn’t even attempting to do.

  10. doorman says:

    At this point Nonis, Poulin & Loiselle need to sit down and figure out where to go from here in terms of coaching and player movement/development. Are they willing to take a step back, trade a few assets, young vets and younger even? Are they determined that playoffs is a must? Are they willing to make a coaching change? Once they determine that, everything else can fall into place. I am not a kool- aid drinker that thought we were a cup contender, but I did think we would keep making forward strides. As this hasn’t happened as a fan I am willing to be patient if a plan is presented to us.

  11. LN91 says:

    Eklund reported this rumor this morning, but rumblings of a Colorado and Leafs possible trade has been happening for awhile…

    He suspects a package, headlining Jake Gardiner, for Ryan O’Reilly.

    Should the Leafs do it? I think I would. O’Reilly is young, plays a 200 ft game, and is a better at C then he is on the wing (AVS are loaded with centers right now).

    Would you do it? If so, what would you do with Kadri?

    • realistic_leafs_fan says:

      I think O’Reilly’s qualifying offer has to be like $6mil or something doesn’t it? I mean I like the guy, but I would want more clarity on the contract situation.
      Kadri(+ a little bit) for O’Reilly, I would like to do.
      Nazem gave a glimpse of what he can play like last night, but it was against a poor defensive team. If he could be that way most nights, I would want to keep him. Unfortunately he isn’t on most nights.

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