Leaf bashing…fans of 29 other teams favourite past time…

As I read almost every article on HTR.com as time permits; I find it hilarious that somehow Leaf / Leaf fan bashing squeezes its way into every article or response. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a Leaf fan but it doesn’t hurt me to hear what others think about them or Leaf fans in general; this is more to create conversation and discussion. 

I have read articles about predictions for the playoffs when the second the Leafs are seen in the 7th or even 6th seed anti-leaf fans lose it and begin the “you have to be an idiot to think the leafs will even make it”. I have also read our recently discussed post about why I dislike Don Cherry, somehow bashing the Leafs squeezed into that too.

So I’d like to start by asking one simple question….why do you hate the Leafs and/or their fans? Is it because you think they think they’ll win every year (Montreal fans are no different there) so you focus on looking for every opportunity to jump and attack them? Is it because you dislike Toronto because it is the “business” centre of Canada (like it or not, it is) and it annoys you? Is it because you have a friend who likes the Leafs and you enjoy having a rivalry with them? Or maybe it’s because 80% of the Leaf fans out there are only Leaf fans and not NHL fans. It’s true Toronto might have the most solid fans base in the league (please realize I used the word “might” and not “do” before you jump on that one) but most of them would not pay any attention whatsoever to the NHL if Toronto somehow lost its team. But I also point out that in order to write an article like this I must do things like say “please realize I used the word “might” and not “do” before you jump on that one” in order to tame the Leaf bashers out there who are ready to attack me if I slip on even one sentence.

I ask this out of sheer curiosity, I’m not “crying” about it or “whining” or any of that, it’s sheer curiosity. But I’m sure someone will crack on me just because I cheer for my team in Toronto.

So again, I ask you “What is it that makes you consistently ready to pounce on the Leafs and their fans?”

47 Responses to Leaf bashing…fans of 29 other teams favourite past time…

  1. buds8 says:

    They bash us because apprently "we deserve it!" and/or "we ask for it!"

    I can't count the number of times I've heard "I don't hate the Leafs, I hate the fans!"

    I think it may be because we have loyalty, we don't stop watching the team when they aren't playing well, or maybe even perhaps because we haven't given up hope on winning a Cup, since it hasn't happened since 1967.

    It's funny how everyone can name the last time the Leafs won a cup, EVERYONE!  Let's see how many people know the last time any other team in the league (that they don't cheer for) won the Cup!

    I am of the opinion that Leaf-bashers are those losers from high school that wanted to be part of the cool group but couldn't fit in!  LOL!  Shut up before I knock your books outta your hands on the way down the stairs, or stuff you in a locker!

    You all owe us a portion of your tickets sales, we sell out your stadiums when the Leafs visit!

    Ya ya ya, typical Leafs fan!  Whatever!

    Keep mocking us because of our loyalty!


  2. prairiehab says:

    I think it comes down to 3 things,
    -The general hatred from the rest of Canada towards Toronto, because they think of themselfs as the center of the Universe and they don't care about the rest of the country(in all aspects) most people don't like selfishness.
    – The fact the the sports media on all National channels (CBC, TSN, Sportsnet) always bring up Toronto first and usually discuss the Leafs more then other teams, and Leaf games are shown more often on TV, no matter if they suck or not.
    -Thirdly, there seem to be alot of posters that give Leaf fans a bad name(ie. lolLeafyMcleaf) and post alot of inane comments or(in the past) liked to post this "guy is coming to toronto for this crap player in return" on every single free agent that used to come up. Sure other teams do the same but Leaf fans seemed to do it alot more often. (maybe there is more Leaf fan posters resulting in more Bad posters)
    But those are the main reason I beleive people bash the Leaf fans.

  3. prairiehab says:

    I think everyone knows 67, because it has been posted alot when Leaf fans bring up my team is better then urs sortof thing, So with more posts of this, more people see the fact they haven't won so even more people can post it.
    But off the Top of my Head, Rangers 94, Calgary 89, Edmonton 90, Dallas 99, Pitsburgh 92.

  4. cristowall39 says:

    ill give you a couple of examples of why people hate them.
    they sign andrew raycroft-stanley cup parade
    they win in the preseason-stanley cup parade
    they have a terrible record come all star break- blame everything on raycroft

    u guys suck

    and u guys think way to high of the leafs

    every day another article about sundin gonnna win trophies or break gretzky's records. the only record he might win is the most pga tour wins by a hockey player 

  5. mojo19 says:

    You're right. We're like Cleveland Browns fans. We love our team no matter where they finish and were the most loyal fans. Even if we get pissed off at our team, and we want all these guys off our team traded, we only do it because we ligitimately care about the leafs!

  6. mojo19 says:

    Toronto isn't the worst for bad trades, montreal fans are the worst for that. But its close. And Toronto is the biggest city, what do you expect, lets discuss whats going on in Calgary? They have a smaller fan base and the networks cader to what most people want to see, leafs coverage. Everyone else just gets jelous. Sorry you live in a smaller city, if you don't like it move to Toronto or New York.

  7. mojo19 says:

    I don't think Mats golfs that much, Grant Fuhr if anyone could play in the PGA, he made the tour one year but got disqualified for cheating (which he admitted to, and disqualified himself) But Grant still could have made it.

    And don't be jelous that Mats if 5 times the player Koivu ever pretends to be. Sorry, but you haven't had a ligit marquee player since Patrick Roy.

  8. prairiehab says:

    That's a far stretch to say you are the "Most Loyal Fans", that we are the "Bestestest Fan's ever" attitude is why people will bash you. Every fan base has Layoal fans and Bandwagon Fans, to Judge which Fans are the best is not possible.

  9. prairiehab says:

    Other cities may be smaller, but that doesn't mean they have a smaller fan base. The Fan base for teams like Edmonton and Calgary Spread all the way from the Alberta Border to Manitoba. It is that Elitist Attitude and selfishness that makes everyone hate Toronto. Toronto is how Big? 4 or 5 Mil, the Rest of Canada is what 35 mil. So that means Toronto consists of not even 9% of the Population. You are not as big or important as you would like to think you are. Maybe you should step out of your dream world and start thinking of other people. Then you won't be so hated.

  10. LEAFSLEAFSLEAFS1967 says:

    Dude stop generalizing leafs fans. Sure there were some that planned the parade but I think most saw potential and an upgrade over Belfour. And I think that's what there is he's at least as good as Eddie, less prone to injury, and has the potential to be better he just hasnt gotten there yet and he may not get there with us. And NOBODY planned a parade for a preseason win. We were excited about it because it shows we can win just like every other fan in this league. People do not blame everything on Rayzor. They point out his faults and blame who needs to be blamed. Again there are a few who will blame it on Raycroft alone but i think most realize the one who deserves all the blame is JFJ. And our record is not horrible not great but not horrible. Average. We don't think too high of our team it's called loyalty. it's called NOT GIVING UP when the team goes through bad times. And with Sundin yeah he's unlikely to win a trophy so there's the only good point that you made. But let's face it breaking a Gretzky record deserves to be talked about if a habs player were to do it you habs fans would be jumpin all over it to rub it in the faces of nhl fans everywhere. But let's face the facts nobody on your habs squad will likely EVER break a Gretzky record. In short, your comment made absolutely no sense.

  11. BLUE_AND_WHITE says:

    Judging by your arguments you should hate the St. Louis Blues (who suck, although doing well of late) and LeafyMcLeaf(who parades for Sundin too muc).

    the last time i heard any leaf fan say "I think this year will be our year" was when we traded for Leetch and Francis and Gilmour. When we were a good team.

  12. prairiehab says:


                   GP        G       A          P       Points Per Game
         1198    514    695     1209          1.0091
            617     153    349      502           0.8163

                   GP        G       A          P       Points Per Game
          83       35      39       74            0.8915
            43       13      23      36             0.8372

    So oh my god he has better stats but not exactly staggering numbers, the Only numbers you can compare is Points per game, Which Sundin is only .2 of a point more then Koivu, Big friggen deal. Not exactly 5 times the player. Also there is more to a player then just stats, if you can add up every thing else Koivu brings to a team, I think it would make up that "0.2".

    But if anyone wants to compare them to the Great's,

                    GP        G       A          P       Points Per Game
          1487    894   1963   2857            1.9213
    915     690   1033   1723            1.8831

    No one comes close.

    For a little more fun comparing players. Check out the All-time Points list, http://statshockey.homestead.com/alltimeppg.html.
    Interestingly enough Sittler is the first Leaf at 1.02ppg, Does that make Sittler 5 times the Player Sundin is? I didn't think so.

  13. BLUE_AND_WHITE says:

    Its a rivalry in itself. Leafs vs the other 29 teams. We outnumber every other teams individual fan base by at least a 2:1 ratio, we constantly get published as the most profitable team, and we make rivalries with every team we face.

    the leaf bashing intensity has turned up the hea in the last 10 years for a couple of reasons:
    1. Consistently competitive(who is a rival of the Jackets??)
    2. Good teams, we've liked our chances at the cup too much at times (other teams do it too, but with a city of 4 million, the media makes us stick out)
    3. Quinn era included a lot of fiestly in your face guys that other teams and fans hate (Marchmant, Tucker, Corson, Domi, Belak)

  14. BLUE_AND_WHITE says:

    Koivu does not do as much for his team as Sundin does. Sundin is a face off master, he plays the PHK and the PP, he can log more minutes. Sundin has 360 more goals, including a league record holding 15 overtime goals. Oh and If Sundin gets 70 points this season he will have the record for most consecutive 70 point seasons, taking that stat away from… the Great one. Sundin is highest scoring swede ever o play the game. Koivu is a blip on the stat sheet

  15. BLUE_AND_WHITE says:

    31 mil in Canada, but thats notimportant. You can have as many fans asyou like but if nobody buys a ticket or watches a game you'refan base is wasted. the leafs have no problem with that.

  16. BLUE_AND_WHITE says:

    funny, every city thinks it has the best fans, yet leaf fans are the nly ones who get heck for it.

  17. prairiehab says:

    But he has played twice as many games as Koivu, he better have more points. 0.2 points per game is nothing. I wasn't taking anything away from Sundin he is good but he can not be put on the same lvl as the greats of this game, he is good just like Koivu is good. I think Koivu brings just enough more to a team to put him on the same lvl as sundin(the little bit better is my Bias). But there is no way in Hell that Sundin is 5 times the player that Koivu is and neither one are on the same lvl as the greats of our game.

  18. BLUE_AND_WHITE says:

    Sundin holds records. Koivu played less games because he gets injured a lot, thats a factor. 0.2 ppg more and 360 more GOALS!!!! Sundin has 0.429 goals per game… Koivu 0.247. What else does Koivu bring to the team that you talk about???

  19. leafsrule31 says:


    yet.. i've been a leaf fan since i was 4.. and i've never spent more than a few nights at a time in toronto in my life… and have spent the majority of it living about a 24 hour drive from it.

    this was true in the past, but lately i tend to notice tsn seems to go with the all canadian match ups first (of course), then the west coast teams, and than the leafs. the score is the same, and sportsnet just goes with the highest touted canadian matchups in order. the guy's at cbc are definitly leaf fans.. but not as in your face as anti leaf fans would like to believe. just my perspective of course.

    trust me.. leafy is a sens fan in disguise my friend.

  20. leafsrule31 says:

    and that is exactly the typical bashing that one would expect from a 12 year old, and the purpose of the guys article in the first place. yesss.. every team has its juvinile immature fans to make their team look bad, and every team has the fans with the ability to make yourself look bad. thank you for proving yourself a part of the latter

    i .. as a leaf fan

    1) bashed the raycroft TRADE.. from day 1. and i still do.

    2).. no.. maybe from a leafs fan with the mental capacity of yourself.

    3).. i've been blaming everything on raycroft since he started letting in 4 goals on a 20 shot night.. every night. my opinion. but i didn't need the allstar break to come for that to start.

    4).. i've seen one article on sundin, and the breaking of a gretzky record. aaand it was true? never seen any of him winning trophys. my question?.. what the hell were you doing in the leafs section of the site if you hate the leafs so much in the first place?.. it's that attraction to the leafs that proves the article's author's point.

    groooow up

  21. leafsrule31 says:

    you can't discredit sundin for koivu spending half of his career injured

  22. leafsrule31 says:

    i think it just comes down to the love to hate factor

    just like a popular band, movie, tv show, anything. some people love it.. some people hate it. some people love it because others hate it, and some people hate it because others loves it. but the amount of people who feel absoloutly no emotion towards it is a fraction of a percentage.

    everyone has their own reasoning.

  23. Pony says:

    I wouldnt be so quick to call 0.2ppg nothing, thats the difference between an 80pt season and a 60pt season.

    Youd call that nothing?

  24. polastem says:

    True dat. I'll probably get bashed for saying "dat" now.

  25. polastem says:

    Here are some interesting facts about Toronto.

    1. Gary Bettman just announced at the All-Star game that the Maple Leafs are one of the most stable and richest teams in all professional sports. Really think about that as I continue this.

    2. TSN, CBC, and Sportsnet are all in competition to buy the Maple Leafs games when CBC loses the contract, which I believe expires after next season.

    3. The Maple Leafs are the only NHL team in which every game is televised, so no wonder so many people watch the leafs, it's all you can see when a hockey game comes on. And that's not the fans fault, that's just damn good commercialization on behalf of the Leafs publicity staff.

    4. Years ago, when there was the original six, there were only the best players in the league, there wasn't any of this filtered talent across the league we see nowadays, so ALL of the best players landed somewhere within those 6 teams, and that's probably why we still expect a big name to come to Toronto.

    5. Everyone loves to dream, and people who like/love the Leafs deam about their team. Only thing is that the Leafs fan base is huge, which again, started years ago, and in Canada you either loved the Leafs and hate the Canadians or vice versa.

    6. Leafs fans will even buy tickets to sell out Buffalo cause there aren't enough seats in the ACC. It's a possibility if the ACC added another section, it would sell out as well.

    7. Remember this! The Leafs are the only major league team in professional sports to have their own channel! Unless you count the Raptors. Leafs TV televises the rest of the games that were not purchased by the other channels.

    So I can see why you hate us so much, but the fact is that I really don't care what you think. Anything you say is not going to affect my "religious following" with the maple leafs. When they suck, I want a high draft pick, cause other teams get high draft picks and Toronto screwed up "based on the new salary capped NHL" in trading away all of their youth. And when the Leafs play well, I want the cup, why? Becuase I want to celebrate it in my lifetime. It's as much of a dream for me as it is for a Senators fan to see them win, or the Blackhawks, Panthers, Capitals, etc. etc. etc. And with the new league, in which teams are really balanced and anyone can do well or not so well season to season, then anything is possible. So don't judge me on how I dream. I don't judge you on yours.

  26. polastem says:

    Any player can do great over the short term. I mean, if you judged it like that, then Havlat should be the best player in the NHL along with Perrault. Sundin has been consistently over 70 points his entire career. He's 36 and he's still an elite in the league. He's past his prime, and he's still putting up similar numbers from 10 years ago. Koivua played a lot less games, is much more fragile, and thank god the league changed to basically no touching a player, or Koivu's little body wouldn't stand another 5 seasons. Sundin is able to excel in every aspect, old style or new. AND when he goes back to Sweden, he's crowned the best, even compared to Lidstrom, Forsberg, hell even Salming. He's the Captain for Sweden, and he's taken them to the Gold. I can't compare him to Koivu, two seperate leagues. Sundin is comparable to guys like Forsberg, Yzerman, Sakic. Are you saying that Koivu compares to them? lol

  27. quick_stick says:

    Just a quick comment… "The general hatred from the rest of Canada towards Toronto, because they think of themselfs as the center of the Universe and they don't care about the rest of the country(in all aspects) most people don't like selfishness." 

    This is all perspective.  I'm not from Ontario, but if you look at Quebec's and Alberta's politics and attitude, it's not perceive any different.  (ie. When AB was a have not province, they had their hands out pretty heavily, and now the oil has made them rich, they've suddenly got a problem with helping the other provinces)… I won't even get into Canada's peception of Quebec's selfishness in politics and policy, as that's a very long conversation.

    As to CBC etc mentioning the Leafs so much, I can certainly see how this would drive other fans nuts, but it IS because the Leafs have such a large fan base.  You'll notice that the Habs get nearly as much air time (though sadly for their fans away from QB, not on HNIC), and that's because they also have a large fan base. 

    Sportsnet is VERY Ottawa friendly, and the Leafs are definately not the first mentioned on that station.  They also have perhaps the most bias colour and play-by-play of any Canadian network.

  28. quick_stick says:

    Thanks for illustrating quite nicely how stupid some of the Leaf bashers are.  You've manage to give this article solid credibility in one little post.  Congrats!

  29. prairiehab says:

    He got injuried becasue he was a small player that played like a big man.
    Then Cancer, Then an eye injury. Both of those can't be considered because he is small.
    Then he come back from cancer sooner then anyone has and carried his team in the playoffs upsetting the favored team and then almost doing the same the next round, if it wasn't for a blatant Elbow that knocked his linemate(zednik) out of the series. Which deflated the team.
    That sir is Heart and something Sundin has been critized for lacking in the playoffs, even every Leafs Hero has Don Cherry has critizied Sundin for this.
    Koivu makes every player that plays on his line look better. Other then Tucker, does Sundin do this? How many Leaf players has Sundin made look like a Rookie of the Year Candidate? Koivu – See Ryder Higgins.
    When Koivu goes back to Finland he is crowned "the Best" and Captains Finland to Medals not just one Gold. Gold in 95 Worlds, Bronze in 94, 98 Olympics, Silver in 06. During the times when Selanne looked like he was done in the NHL, he has played with Koivu and regained his goal scoring prowess in International Hockey. Koivu and Selanne led the olympics in points during the last one.
    Any time Koivu has managed to play close to a full season he gets over 70 points, 02-03 72 points in 80 games, 05-06 70 points in 72 games. So if Koivu could of been healthy he could of consistently pulled in 70 point season as well.

    See that is another reason people hate leaf fans, Mats is the "greatest player". But you can't admit the accoladites of others, and most of Koivu's misfortunes have been bad luck, not just because he is small. Most small players have more talent then Big Players, Sundin is an exception as he is big and has talent. His Size was a blessing to have during a time that can be considered the Dark Ages of the NHL, Where Clutch and Grab was Hockey not speed and talent. Sundin Excelled with size and talent. 

    IF anyone thinks that the old NHL, where hooking, throwing out a knee and grabbing on to a player when he blazed by you was better hockey is crazy. And probable if they ever even played hockey themselfs was problable some big buffon that couldn't skate.

    Koivu and Sundin are on the same level, Sundin was lucky he was born with size so he could still excell during the dark ages. Koivu ran into a string of bad luck and injuries that delayed his potentional. Anytime he has played a full season he has matched Sundin. He has matched or better any accolade Sundin has accomplished. So if you still can't see this and will only LOLKoivu beacuse he was small and injuried and you can't appreciate a hockey talent if he is not on your team then you don't deserve anymore of my time. I wrote here to answer a question why people hate Leaf fans. Most of the replies to my statements just prove why people hate leaf fans even more, Ignornace.


  30. leafsrule31 says:

    all good points..
    but when arguing stats between sundin and koivu.. and your saying sundins played much more. the point is koivu was still injured. doesn't matter how where why or when… sundins had a more complete dominant career, and still succumbed to a few injuries. and i think sundins just as big of a hero in sweden as koivu is in finland.. if not more. sundin captained 3 teams in one year. third highest scoring leaf of all time?.. we both know we could go on with this all day. but in my opinion, its not even close. sundin is twice the hockey player koivu is in any comparable sense… except maybe heart. its hard to knock mr koivu for that.. not saying sundin doesn't have any.. just saku's is undeniable. and as far as i'm concerned, to say sundin has lacked heart in the playoffs is just a rediculous statement. and yes.. sundin has made every single player he has ever played with look better. renberg?.. jonas hoglund?.. berezin?.. antro?.. every winger sundin has had has had career numbers with him. 90 percent of those guys didn't even have a career after leaving sundin. higgins and ryder are actually young stars with actually quite a bit of talent. very bad point my friend.

    no ones saying he's the greatest ever… just that he's better than saku koivu?.. and realistically.. he is?.. it's not a homer thing. he just plain is.

    i can appreaciate that saku koivu is a unique talented hockey player, he just isn't what mats sundin is. and when your trying to compare the two.. you can't use saku's size as somewhat of an advantage?.. that he should be considered more because of his small stature? thats just inane.. and a sign of ignorance on your part.

    could be wrong.. but didn't dom and the czech's steal the 98 olympics? you discredit yourself with visible homer-ism, and inaccuracy, meanwhile attempting to slam a rival teams fan basis for doing the same thing, and pegging it as ignorance.

  31. prairiehab says:

    98? I said Finland one bronze in 98 not gold.
    My point with higgins and ryder were that he made them look like Rookie of the Year candidates not just young stars, Sundin has not made antropov or any other young player candidate for rookie of the year.   i can list all the players he has made look good too Savage, Zednik, Zubrus, etc. Realistically Renberg looked his best on the legion of doom then went to the leafs, so technically his play with sundin was downgrade from philly, right?
    Heart Sundin does have heart, but in the playoffs his production drops off and sometimes has been non-existent in the playoffs. Maybe a step down from his season play or maybe just tired of carry the leafs I don't know. But that has been Sundin's knock on him from various media Outlets including MR. CHERRY, I do believe you have said you believe everything he says right? Koivu has stepped up his play in the playoffs.
    Points, Sundin has way more points and has been a consistent player in the NHL, he is the only player on the Leafs I can watch. Nearing the end of his carreer he is showing even more heart then when he was being critizied for it. I beleive the leafs should give Sundin a chance of a stanley cup with a contender as he deserves atleast one shot at it.
    I never said Koivu's size made him better then Sundin. I said he was blessed with size in order to play through the clutch and grab with his talent. Koivu got hurt because of his size. If size wasn't an issue they would have nearly the same stats points wise. When i said Smaller players generally have more talent i didn't mean sundin had less talent then Koivu. it was a knock on the old NHL's way of thinking, Size first talent second. It should be a testiment to Koivu's talent that he was given the chance to play with giants, only a few were given that chance at that time.
    Homerisim sure every body fan has that. Maybe that came out a little more in defence, when you see LOLKoivu, or he is so brittle and small he sucks or Sundin is 5times the player Koivu is and Sundin is going to break the great ones records. Well if size wasn't a factor then Koivu would have a similar career points wise to Sundin. In every other aspect of the Game He can and has matched Sundin. The Ignorance statement was in regards to not looking past Koivu's size and injuries, when I haven't put Sundin down(other then stating a fact that Sundin's heart has come in to question at some points in time) and seeing Koivu for what he has done and could of done without injuries.
    But the Fact remains Koivu still has a better oppurtunity to win a cup Captaining his club and Sundin will need to be traded for him to get a shot.

  32. leafsrule31 says:

    my bad.. read that one wrong

    in no way were ryder or higgins candidates for rookie of the year, not more so than say.. alex steen.. when he was playing the last half of the season with sundin putting up points left right and center.

    hahaha.. as i said.. i agree with 90-95 percent of what cherry has to say.. go back and quote me on that one fella, his production may drop a bit (i dont think so.. because unless im wrong hes still a point a game player in the playoffs..). but his heart and determination is still there, just ask the boys on the other team in ot. or during the game for that matter, mats sundin is a force to be reckoned with, and as far as im concerned saku koivu is just not in the same league. my opinion. and i respect yours

    i see his play making abilities as comparable with sundins.. but not his sheer goal scoring power. sure its peaked at what 40?.. and probley averages around 25-30.. but in my eyes if the 2 of them are on the ice.. i can see sundin scoring and creating his own goal before koivu does. not to mention his defensive abilities.. he's been solid on the penalty kill when had the chance. koivu can not compare to his dominance of the puck, and my point on that was that big small, preservering against the odds, or whatever, it's still gonna take him all day to shove mats off the puck, and take it away from him.

    i actually think saku koivu is very underrated.. he doesnt get alot of the credit he deserves. but, as far as im concerned.. saku would never have been captain of the habs if there was a more fitting player for the job at the time he was named. someone with viable leadership abilities, and since he's acquired the captaincy.. he's maintained it because he had it. sure im gonna draw alot of flack for that.. but thats seriously what i think. they've both been in trade rumours a million times, but i see mats as more of a contractual situation, how it would benefit the club as far as his value and worth, where as saku's rumours were drawn because of his crap assed play and inability to put up numbers at one point, and inconsistency at others. mats has always been dependable.. 30 gp.. 36 points.. per say.. where ive seen saku put up 3 goals and 6 assists in 19 games.. and than turn around and out up 36 in his next 42 to. too me, thats borderline inconsistency.

    i can respect your opinion coming from a habs fan, but again, as far as i'm concerned they're just not in the same league. in almost every category.. and its silly to mention the breaking gretzky records. because thats been mentioned once, and not by me, and it actually is a fact that he's going to break one of those records. they can change the rules to accomodate young talented players all they want, but a big man with the agility and sheer talent sundin possesses will always make him the dominant player in my mind.. and thats just the way the game is?. sure he's a talented hockey player, he's just not mats sundin. wanna go nationality?.. 2 different countries, sundins approaching a legacy in a country that carried more talented players of the years than the fins, while koivu is near the top of a weakened crop.

    i just can't swallow the idea that they're close to the same ground, maybe thats my homerism?.. hard to say i guess. i see them as 2 different players.. and if i have my fantasy draft, my pick comes, and sundin and koivu are available.. 10 times out of 10. i'll take sundin, and i think the vast majority of neutral hockey fans would say the same. again.. my opinion

  33. prairiehab says:

    Alright then,
    I respect your Opinion as it is breath of fresh air to discuss something with a Leaf fan without them retorting to name calling or profanity.

    But a few things to point out in my Original comment i posted Sundins and Koivu's stats and points per game in season and playoffs. Sundin drops from 1 ppg to .8 ppg. which happens to be Koivu's ppg, even though Koivu's slightly increases but rounding it up is still .8. As many pointed out to me they think .2 of increas is a "big" diffrence I disagreed. But if it is a big diference then a .2 of decrease from season to Playoffs is a big diffrence. I believe Ryder was 3rd or 4th on the ballot box when Raycroft won Rockie of the year, so he may not of won but he was on the ballot. Higgins rookie year is questionable as last year was a big year for rookies.
    When I happen to watch a leaf game Sundin sticks out on the ice, his linemates do not.
    The gretzky thing was said as it has been mentioned here before not by you but on this post so it does have merit and was used as an exageration to How most "Leaf fans" view Sundin.
    As far as same league I will stick by mine as you will by yours, the only way you can compare them is when both were heathly and playing there game, so the only times this happened is when Koivu played 2 full seasons, and average Sundins  Avg. of 70 points. and on the international stage Koivu(Gold, silver, 2 bronze) Sundin (Gold, not sure what else but i'm sure it would be close to the same). You also have to remember Sweden has alot "more" great players then Finland. Koivu has not only lead finland to success but he  and Selanne lead the tournament not only in the last Olympics but it has happened atleast one other time (can't remeber when).  That is when Koivu is at his best and when he is he is right there with Sundin. Don't know how else you can compare them then when both are at there best.

  34. Retard says:

    WHEN OTTACRAP SENAFARTS guy say 1967 i sayers when last times it 1927!

  35. leafsrule31 says:

    hahaha.. allright my friend. i am more than willing to throw in the towel on this debate.. more or less on the stance that this proves were both hockey fans of our own teams before were hockey fans in general. not on the basis that im agreeing koivu is the better hockey player, because i'm firm on sundin being the better one.. and you can write it on my tombstone.

    that's what makes this interesting to me. it's a koivu vs sundin debate.. a hab's fan vs. a leaf fan… and its nothing but borderline educated points based on hockey knowledge by 2 hockey fans who will go to bat for their team and it's captain.. but are to lazy and don't have enough time to search for the facts to back it up.. hah! especially in the midst of a forum which the hot topic is why everyone hates leaf fans.. thats gotta be something to be made note of.

    but regardless. you make your good points, and i can admit that. but i stand firm on my own opinions, i'm starting to think maybe it is a homer-ish thing on my part. but i'm just so sold on the point of view that when i compare the 2.. i respect both immensly, but just can't wrap my arms around the idea that they are on an equal level, let alone koivu having an edge. i just can't even realistically think that they're in the same league. i will always think sundin is twice the player, and than again.. that could be my homerism..

    i'd like to see alot of neutral fans votes on the subject.. because i'm so sold on the issue. i seriously think 7 out of 10 neutral hockey fans would take sundin before they would take koivu under any circumstances?.. but that's the joy of having an opinion. i must admit though.. you show alot more class, even under heat, than what i would also call the "typical" habs fan. respectful. informed, and yet passioniate about his stance.. its good to see. as well as alot more class than the typical leaf fan.. there are alot of respectable leaf fans on this site.. but there's just that select group that pummel us right into the ground… and to stick with the article.. that select group does not speak for us. because some of us can have an educated opinion, and defend ourselves with partialism, not immaturity, as well as challenge the topic on the same front. i know you must understand that

    yet.. hahaha.. i still think mats sundin is the more dominant, complete, hockey player in yesterdays, and todays nhl. you make a good case for yourself.. but i'm just stuck on it.. and am interested to hear a neutral hockey fans point of view on it.

  36. halgillfan says:

    im sure the exact same argument is going on in the baseball forums with the yankees and all of the other teams…the team with the most fans and the most money always is going to get bashed. its the classic underdog thing where you want to go for the underdog.

    i think its funny because some people have so much emotion with it. the only thing i hate is those people that don't really have a team they just hate the leafs (or since i live in st. catharines they kind of like the sabres)

  37. BLUE_AND_WHITE says:

    you mean, when sens fans say we haven't won since 67, we can say they haven't won since 1927. i usually say" wow, you're so obsessed about the leafs, i bet you don't even know the last time you're team won the cup"

  38. BLUE_AND_WHITE says:

    no no no, leaf bashers only bash when there is no resonable reason to.

  39. Retard says:

    that is gooder ideas theene mys i trie nuxt tim

  40. thatleafsguy says:

    What is your arguement? Koivu is not on Sundin's level! 500 plus goals compared to a measily 150 plus….please get bent. Unless Koivu scores 350 goals by the time he hits the age of 38 – 40 years of age, Koivu can't see Sundin. Not today, not tommorow, NEVER. Sure he recovered from serious health issues but, that doesn't put him in Sundin's category when it comes to the game of hockey.

  41. mojo19 says:

    Mike Johnson tied Sergei Samsonov in points their rookie seasons, and Johnson was runner up for the calder playing on Sundins wing to answer your question.

    By the way, I can't beleive there are people who know so little about hockey that we are actualy comparing Koivu?????? and Sundin. If we were comparing Sundin to Modano or something that would make sense, why are we comparing him to Koivu?? Let's compare him to Craig Conroy next, he's about as good as Koivu.

  42. mojo19 says:

    Since Koivu is obviously not on the same page as Sundin, but you want to compare him to a leaf of about the same calibre, compare him to Tucker.

  43. wingedim says:

    The irony of this whole post is that it was found in the Leafs rumours section. Which indicates the number of 'trolls' there are on this site.

  44. JuicemaN says:

    Nah, people just come here for the entertainment and the conversation. But thanks for trying to bash us for visiting web sites…apparently that's wrong now too.

    Or maybe I read your post wrong, I'm hoping that's the case.

  45. wingedim says:

    My point was missed, but, that was due to my wording. My bad.

  46. LeafsrGods says:

    U suk cristowall39 cuz we all leafs nation hate u no why? because the leafs passion unites us leafs lovers all…..and all those haters can kiss my shiny ottawa senators flag burning ass ok? cuz u suk and ur team sux! and u no wut! LEafs is the only best team in the nhl in the 30 team organization and u no wut else? When the maple leafs win the cup i am gonna go to ur house, make u kiss my ass, and then u can lick my balls k? mofo stupid leaf haters cuz i love leafs too much

  47. polastem says:

    You're the reason why they are so arrogant, lol.

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