Kypreos and Friedman think the Leafs are willing to move Gardiner to bring in a center. Both "how could you not?"
— Hope_Smoke (@Hope_Smoke) December 3, 2013
Kypreos and Friedman think the Leafs are willing to move Gardiner to bring in a center. Both "how could you not?"
— Hope_Smoke (@Hope_Smoke) December 3, 2013
Well, duh. They’re missing an elite, possession center.
Sam Gagnier………. $4.8M
Edmonton 5 Rd 2014
Jake Gardnier……… $875,000
J.M Liles…………. $3,875,000
Edmonton then could flip Liles to Carolina for Tim Gleason… Making the Oliers Defense deeper and tougher. Id love to find away to trade Gleason for Liles but unless Carolina retains salary than it wouldn’t happen. If they did the Leafs still need to free up about $3M in cap space for the Gagnier Trade.
No, the Leafs do not need another overpriced, smallish, bad faceoff center.
Yea, we are picking up another 2nd line centre without size…not really what we need.IMO Nice to move Liles, but I am not a huge Gagner fan as a fix for the Leafs.
It would be nice to get a centre(if we trade Gardiner), but we need help on D! Our D is just not good enough. Healthy, our centre’s can survive and our wings are fairly strong. Our D is going to be our downfall.
We do need some help on D.
However, I am not fully sold on our center’s at all.
Bolland is a good 3rd line center ( a guy that can fill into the 2nd line spot), Kadri is…I do not know where he’s performing at right now, and Bozak is another Bolland.
I still think they have one of the worst center groups in the league.
Kadri hasn’t been great this season, but I think you’re selling him a bit short in your last couple posts.
His offensive numbers aren’t bad for a 2nd line C, and he hasn’t be that bad defensively (not good, but not awful).
I mean +/- wise he’s on par with, or ahead, of the likes of Tavares, Staal, Spezza (+/- is sort of a bogus stat so take it for what it’s worth). These guys are all considered bonafied 1Cs – although Staals season is pathetic so far.
He leads our Centers in takeaways so he must at least be active in the defensive zone (leads in giveaways too, which is bad but I’m sure centering Colton Orr when the coach decides to shake things up doesn’t help).
I’m not ready to make Kadri the whipping boy, he’s far from our problem so far.
He sucks at faceoffs, but is still somehow fourth on the team (nothing to brag about, we suck at faceoffs. Not sure how this hasn’t been addressed. And not with plugs like Smithson).
That said I’m far from sold on your Cs as well, but there aren’t exactly 1Cs floating around anywhere. With Bolland in the lineup, our depth really isn’t that bad.
That’s the thing, 1C’s are not just given up for a Gardiner typically. Gardiner has value, but I see us possibly moving him for a different kind of D help if we do.
I know many wouldn’t, but taking cap into consideration, I would do
D. Savard, Prout, 2014 3rd
We get a 2 young D back. One a tough, shutdown kind of guy in Prout at less than what a cap like Gleason would be to play with Fraser.
A Puck mover with decent size in Savard who can man the right point PP and has a good point shot and is a good skater. It also makes moving Franson possible in a package that may land a centre, veteran D etc.
What a godawful deal for the Leafs
Is that concluded from reading draft positions and scouting reports or actually watching these kids play?
Godawful.hmmm, we lose one player that will actually play on the team to get two that will and both fill a hole on the right side.
I really just see that as selling short on Gardiner’s value. It’s a sideways step at best IMO.
I actually really like Prout and Savard, but neither really bring anything of significance that would upgrade our team. It seems like a bandaid option deal simply to add some toughness and RH’ds to the team.
I’d rather use Gardiner’s value in a packaged for a significant pieces. We can get a player like Prout in the system with MacWilliam or Grannberg soon enough. Savard is nice and I think he’s an underrated guy but he’s nothing but a run of the mill 2nd PP option. We can get that elsewhere.
I’d rather use patience than make a snap trade to add RH’d dman that can play.
I like the idea of trading for Savard to free up the ability to move Franson though.
Fair enough Josh.
“I like the idea of trading for Savard to free up the ability to move Franson though.” is where I am coming from as I posted. Who has more value right now Franson or Gardiner?…both are pending RFA’s. I think Franson has a bit more and may be able to be packaged to land us a Girardi type at the deadline. Prout, Fraser, Phaneuf gives us some toughness, Girardi, Gunnar steady play and Rielly, Savard offensive puck movement with Percy in the system still. Plus a team like Colorado (Stastny?) could really use a Franson+.
You don’t trade Jake Gardiner for 2 guys “who can fill a hole on the right side”. Gardiner has already shown he can be an impact player in this league, he is only 23. Granted he has struggled with consistency, coach utilization, fitting in the lineup. These were all reasons Philly gave up on JVR, how is that working out for them?
Gardiner has huge upside you do not trade that for mediocrity and a 3rd round pick you have got to be kidding. I know what you are going to say they are better than I think Leaf fans always overvalue players blah blah blah. I generally think you are a smart guy and have solid points but your trade proposals are brutal. Do you honestly think the above trade is good or do you propose these deals to start discussions?
I can’t answer that or it would ruin all my fun:)
I thought JVR was your typical dream center?
Haha yeah how’d that work out eh
I said I would like to try him there and yes, he is the type of size and ability that I would want in a #1 centre, but let’s get a small skilled guy instead…oh yea, we already have those. Yep, you guys got me again, he played what, 4 games at centre? that proved a lot.lol
I’m not sure either of our comments were directed at you, but okay. I’m not for going after Ganger either, if that’s what you’re getting at..
And 4 games was definitely enough to conclude that JvR is far better on the wing and isn’t comfortable playing center, in fact he pretty much said so himself.
I don’t disagree that he is more comfortable on the wing. I was referring to skill set for centre.
So anyone 6’3 with good hands and speed? Ovechkin would be your perfect center then. Being center is all about seeing the ice, not individual skill.
What part of “skill set for a centre” is hard to understand? I didn’t say let’s get a guy to convert him from wing to centre. I would like a centre with JVR skill set. Size, speed, got to the net etc. If you don’t want that in a centre…what do you want?
An actual center?
Yes…with the skill set of a JVR.
what skill set? a shoot first center that’s so-so defensively.
Shoot first?lol most of his goals are tip ins from going to the net. So-so defensively?… 4 ganes at centre and he’s a defensive liability?lol I forgot how good Kadri is defensively I guess.
How well are the Leafs doing? Oh yeah, still mediocre…
Should the Leafs move forward or just blow it up for a 1C to build around. Package Phaneuf, Kessel and JVR so that they build the team ‘correctly’.
It’s a way to start.
Centers win championships, not wingers.
How many have San Jose won with their elite centers? Tampa Bay with Stamkos and Vinny for a while? With Crosby and Malkin, the two best centers in the game, shouldn’t they have won at least more than one?
The devils made it the the conference finals recently without any good centers, Calgary made it to the finals in 2004 without any good centers.
It was by fluke they both made it, everyone knows that. They were not superior teams.
There has been so many great wingers that have been on teams and could not win cups, let alone playoffs.
Just go through the list, from Datsyuk in Detroit to Crosby in Pittsburgh, Toews in Chicago, and Bergeron in Boston. Great centers win cups, not wingers…Hell, not even goalies these days.
You can argue it until your blue in the face…Kovalchuk only made the postseason 3 times in his career, Jarome Iginla (Prior to being with Crosby) only made it past the first round once on mediocre teams, Rick Nash is still struggling as NYR has never gotten any centers.
Pavel Bure was not the same after leaving Florida.
Even the Leafs are a great example, they were an embarrassment until they got Gilmour and carried on by Sundin. They did not win, yes, but the security down the middle made the Leafs actual contenders.
So, argue it all you want about Kessel and Lupul leading the Leafs to glory, because IMO it just will not happen. Some great centers never win, yes, but hell…They give you a better chance then a winger.
You know whats funny, name me the team that wins a cup without a bunch of good wingers because they don’t exist either.
That’s a good point, but it’s also important to realize that centers increase the production of their wingers.
I.E. Pittsburg’s wings, and to some extent Boston’s wings are carried mostly by the likes of Crosby and Krejci.
Hell, if you look at last series…Replace Bergeron/Kejci with Bozak/Kadri and they’re most likely going through.
Again, we know how you feel about centers, the question was should the Leafs blow up at all costs to get that center and rebuild around that
So we’re clear, how desperate the Leafs should be to get that 1C.
NO they shouldn’t. we need help on D and a 1A centre would be great, but not at the cost of a rebuild where you lose JVR, Kessel, Lupul etc. If Bozak can’t go, I would like to see Holland with Kessel/JVR and Kadri with Clarkson/?
I agree Ceneters make wingers better, but it works both ways. Boston has a solid team all round, and I actually disagree about their C’s. That team wins more because of their D and their wingers. If Lucic, Chara and Marchand are replaced by lesser wingers, that team loses it’s whole identity and gets whooped. 1B Centers like Krejci look a lot better when the rest of the team is incredibly stacked.
Krejci is overrated. Put him on the leafs and everyones still shouting for a true number 1 C.
I doubt they wouldn’t…Krejci is better then all 3 centers currently.
He alone, not his wingers, torched the Leafs.
Krejci would definitely be our best center, but that’s not saying anything.
And Lol, what? Horton’s 7 points, and 2 GWGs didn’t hurt the Leafs? How about Lucic’s PPG performance, including a massive comeback goal and assist in game 7?
Krejci was fantastic in that series, but that whole line was on fire. Saying he a lone beat the Leafs is brutally wrong. Remove Lucic and Horton and we win that series.
That’s funny, everyone said ‘Sundin never had a winger’ though in reality he had Moginly, Nolan and Roberts. Yet Kessel doesn’t need a center to crack the top ten in league scoring two years in a row. Funny.
Maybe it’s because Kessel scores off the rush and doesn’t cycle. With Kessel you’ll have a center that hangs back in the play. He’s not a winger you cycle with.
That last comment was for the one above. I never said blow it up, but this team is clearly not built to win a cup with guys like Bozak/Kadri managing the top-2 lines. I doubt they’re a playoff team with injuries and play so it’s this year to evaluate it properly.
I do think the Leafs need to find an actual long-term solution…They need to trade some players at the deadline (Kulemin, Raymond, possiby Phaneuf) and build assets to splurge on an unreal talent.
Are seriously forgetting that the Leafs almost took the series against Boston last year? And a key member of that series was missing during out eventual meltdown? Bozak?
But…Did they win?
that’s a disingenuous question.
Boston was a team built around a core who had years of playoff experience and a cup to boot. Toronto had nary anyone who had playoff experience going into the series.
Completely throwing it out because they lost is folly.
Granted throwing out right now is also folly.
ha splurge on an unreal talent, that’s a good one.
You say the leafs dont need another Centre but with 3 wins in the last 15 Games (since Bozak and Bolland went down) is all because Kadri is only ever going to be a 2B-3 Center Compare the 2 players Gagnier is a way better point producer than Kadri and Bozak… Bozak was worth the #5M if he continued to grow and kept winning draws but his sucks this year in the circle
What league are you watching? Kadri has a better PPG than Gagner, better G/G than gagner, is younger than Gagner, has a better +/- than Gagner, and makes a hell of a lot less than Gagner. Trading for Gagner would be a nightmare. When Bolland comes back we have Kadri-Bolland-Bozak-Gagner-McClement-Holland all down the middle. So unnecessary. We need a 1C, not a 90 lb tweener that’s a downgrade on what we have.
I told you a huge blockbuster is coming. I don’t like to brag, but I’m on top of things.
Lundqvist has been the best goalie in the league for years now, but that contract is really bad.
Under the old CBA sure. But it’s not the old CBA anymore. This is an entirely new environment for contracts. Stars and players as important as Lundqvist is to the Rangers are going to get paid like that regularly. This is what restricting term limit does to contracts.
Rask at 7 million for 8 years is the only comparable goalie contract at this point. The Rangers had to pay more per year for two reasons. First ,Lundqvist has a long record of being the league’s most consistent star goalie. Secondly, the Rangers took 7 years instead of 8. Both together roughly account for the 1.5 million a year increase
Lund is more proven, but he’s 31 (and not far from 32). A 7 year contract takes him until he’s almost 40! The best save % of starting goalies over the age of 35? Brodeur with a .906…. Top 3 goalie of all time, and even he’s hot garbage now. Lundqvist has been a beast his whole career (until this season), but I see no indication that an old lundqvist will be better than an old broduer. I’m fairly sure Lundvists start is an enigma and he’ll be a top goalie in the league again soon, but not in 3-4 years. 37 year old Lund making $8.5? Ouch.
Rask isn’t really comparable, purely because of age. He’s not as proven as Lund, but he has proven he’s elite over a long enough time that he’s worth the contract. He’s dominated every level, rarely had bad stretches and his contract takes him to an optimal age from the bruins POV.
You’re missing the important part. He’s a Swedish legend. He’ll be paid like a king until Sather wants him to play for Modo.
Who’s to say Lundqvist won’t have Brodeur-like longevity?
This is an exciting time with a huge trade coming and I hope it’s really big. But for Gardiner, it better be worth it.
Why trade Gardiner now when his value is low? No one is really drooling at the chance to trade for him. Leaf Nation are the only ones high on Gardiner at the moment, at least Nonis has enough patience not to get fleeced.
I think it’s less about trading him while his value is low and more about getting a good offer in return to fix a hole on the leafs. Does trading him create another hole? Maybe, but I guess that depends what they get back.
Then why is it that any major trade with the leafs from any team MUST include Gardiner
It’s mostly Leaf fans putting in proposals and other fans reacting annoyed.
I like that it has been reported multiple times now that the MLSE is trying to lure Gretzky to the front office. Things like that are huge when trying to attract top FA’s; either established or college/foreign players. When Bozak was highly touted it was a visit from Nieuwendyk that swayed his decision if I remember correctly. Imagine Wayne knocking on your door asking you to choose his team, gotta be hard to say no.
WOW ARE THE HABS HOT! PRICE IS PLAYING LIGHTS OUT RIGHT NOW THE BEST GOALTENDER IN THE LEAGUE RIGHT NOW!
Price is on fire, no doubt about it. Josh Harding would be giving him a good run for Vezina. Weren’t you chirping the Leafs for getting badly outshot and winning? 😉
josh harding isn’t even in price’s leagur right now price si the best goaltender in the league right now and if it was voting time for the vezina he’d win it hands down…. the leafs did enough to win their game but if they keep getting outshot like that there losses will continue and they’ll slide right out of the playoff race,you can thank god the devils are terrible and ottawa blows this year or they’d be passing you as well. i will say this the leafs have alot of resiliencey with the injuries they have and they keep fighting ,scratching and clawing if they keep it up they can maintain a playoff spot but i think for them to have any chance in the playoffs they’ll have to upgrade that defence because right now their top 4 is not good or below average it’s probably one of the worst in our division and conference it’s no where near ours
Please look at the NHL.com stats (considering you’re always the one to claim the stats don’t lie). Harding as almost the same save %, and an incredible GAA, in a tougher conference. How is that not in the same league?
And yes, Montreal’s defence is definitely better than ours. No need to slam the leafs lol. Take out 3 of your top 4 centers for as long as we have and see how you do.
injuries are no excuse we had them earlier ,infact we’ve had the 2nd most man games lost and we played through it yes i do look at the stas because the numbers don’t lie harding isn’t in price’s league prixce is a starter harding is the wild’s back up ,however he’s playing because backstrom is hurt hardings number s are very good i will give him that but seriously he won’t even come close to price his save percentage is behind price’s his goals against is slightly better but pricce is the best goaltender in the league right now
Wait. His save % in behind (by .003), but his GAA is “just behind” (.43). Harding has played as many games as Price has… Who cares if their old starter is injured. If you think they sit Harding when Backstroms back you’re out to lunch. If you only watch the habs play, you obviously think Price is playing better, but if you look at the numbers objectively, who’s better:
15-4-3 .935 1.52 GAA
13-8-2 .938 1.95 GAA
There is literally no argument at all to say they are not playing on the same level right now. You can’t just say Price is the best goalie in the league, and not back it up lol.
To go further, Montreal score .34 more goals per game than Minnesota, who are 23rd in goals/game this year. Still they sit in a playoff spot in the West.
Montreal also has a better overall defence than Minnesota as well.
You’re being a big time homer here. Harding has been just as, if not more lights out than Price. And I’m curious what your argument against that is. I’m assuming you haven’t seen him play other than the two games you guys played Minny this year.
not according to the experts they all say price is the best in the league now and he’s proving it it’s no different when leafs fans werwe on here a while ago saying reimer and bernier were the best in the league and reimer and bernier for sochi ! gimme a break neither of those guys will even get a look or consideration price right now is lights out the best goaltender in the league budaj has as good as stats as harding his he better than price?
Source to the experts please. The budaj thing holds no water because Harding as played a starter amount of games. Please thing logically.
it does hold water give your head a serious shake backstrom is the undisputed starter in minnesota harding is the back up but yeah he’s starting because backstrom is /was hurt so budaj’s number are very comparable to hardings and maybe even better
How on earth are Budajs numbers comparable? He’s played 7 games! And his numbers are worse! How are you this big of a homer lol.
Harding has played 24 games and has the best numbers in the league. That is a fact.
23 games* lol
listen to the experts on tsn,sportsnet they all have said price is the best goaltender in the league right now and he’s playing like it as well
Just a quick search for early Vezina front runners gets these:
Nothing on Price though.
Anyways, to end this argument because it’s too early in the season anyways. I 100% agree Price is playing amazing, and is one of the best goalies in the league right now. But it’s not a clear-cut 1 horse race like you think. I get you love the habs and all, but you gotta give credit where it’s due. Harding has vezina numbers this year as well, and there is no indication Price is any more deserving than Harding thus far. Anyways, 50 games to go so who knows where they end up.
no where have i ever said it was a one horse race you were discrediting him and saying he wouldn’t win it i was saying if was held today he’d win it and kypres(sportsnet0 ,mackenzie,(tsn),dreger,(tsn) aron ward tsn button tsn all said if it was held today he win it talk about callin g the kettle black your the one that has to give credit where credit is due
Please post where I said he wouldn’t win. I said it would be between him and Harding.
“josh harding isn’t even in price’s leagur right now price si the best goaltender in the league right now and if it was voting time for the vezina he’d win it hands down”
That sure sounds like a one horse race to me. How am i not giving credit? I said price is at the top, but hes not the clear winner. What do you read?
mapleleafsfan i’m not slamming the leafs lol i’m just stating the obvious about our defence’s and also that’s where depth comes in we have a few centers that we could use if we lost 3 of our top 4 that’s where we are a deeper team too
No where in the previous post were the leafs mentioned, but you still brought them up for some reason to say how bad their D is lol.
Ok Lafleur. Desharnais, Eller and Plekanec all go down to injuries/suspensions. Please show me the ensuing line-up.
galchenyuk,briere ,bournival can and would play center that’s the dpth i was refrering to
Full lineup please lol. Who’s playing wing now?
sorry this reply is late i was painting my 1967 mustang gt fastback getting it ready for the barret jackson lol
here’s the lines
pacioretty galchenyuk bourque
gionta bournival gallagher
prust briere moen
No fourth line, lol ok. Bring up the leafs when they’re not mentioned again. Do you get off of leaf bashing lol
And that lineup would probably be sitting no better than we are now. Considering our injuries, our position in the standings is fine.
injuries are no excuse we were injured earlier on to satrt the season and at that point had the 2nd most man games lost to injury ,and i don’t think we’d be sitting where you guys are the difference is price’s play and our defence is very, very good we wouldn’t be quite as good as we are or have been but we’d stil be sitiing solidly in a playoff spot .
the 4th line would be white leblanc parros/dumont
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