Possible Trade Between the Pens and Leafs

The Maple Leaf Hotstove is reporting on the possibility of a blockbuster trade between the Leafs and the Penguins.

“The rumor has Tomas Kaberle and a forward, believed to be Matt Stajan, going to the Penguins in exchange for Jordan Staal and Eric Tangradi. The move also gives the Ducks the opportunity to move out one of Pronger or Niedermayer, while it is believed the Niedermayer brothers could be on their way to New Jersey, surprise surprise.”

Read the full article from

http://mapleleafshotstove.com/index.php/2009/02/26/breaking-rumor-pens-and-leafs/


70 Responses to Possible Trade Between the Pens and Leafs

  1. RealisticNick says:

    Correct!  And they needed a winger instead.

  2. broc says:

    "Rick Nash, Kopitar…many power forwards, especially those drafted high, can come in and play right away. Sure there are the Bertuzzi's and Shane Doans of the world, but I'm sure you're thinking Staal will be better than those guys, no?"

    Many power forwards? You've named 2.
    When has Nash been a 3rd line guy put in a defence-first role? Never.
    Since Staal hasn't mirrored Nash-like production, you're prepared to label him "never been a scorer".

    "He plays on malkin and crosby's wing from time to time, no? Those aren't bad linemates."

    Time to time, lol.
    Since you're such a stats whore.. Staal has 2 ppg this year- shows how much quality PP time he gets. He has a total of 9PPG in his career- most of his goals come even strength, when it's more fair game.
    For the record, he only has 6 less even strength goals than Malkin this season, if that helps give some perspective.

    "He's a UFA in 4 years, at a large price I might add."

    Large price for what, 4 mil a year for 4 years? I guess to you that's a bad deal. Unless you're talking about when he's an UFA in the future? But that can't be what you meant- cuz if he's not going to be a guy who scores goals, he wouldn't be looking for a 5-6 mil/year contract later then, would he?

    "I'm not writing him off. He's one of the best 3rd line centers in the league, but he's not a star."
     
    I guess we won't know for a few years still. Based on his progress, I think he will be.

    "Turris scored like a hound before he played a game in the NHL. And its his rookie season, not his third. And he hasn't gotten progressively worse as his career went on. "

    Progressively worse? I didn't know 16 goals this year so far is less than 12 from all last season, LOL.
    As for Turris, he scored like a hound in the BC hockey league- hardly a tough testing ground. He had 11 goals in the NCAA.

    "You're putting words in my mouth. I never said trade nothing for Staal, I am well aware that to GET Staal, it will cost a lot. What I'm saying is that I'm not willing to pay it gor a guy who has never scored 30 goals a season at any level ever. "

    I was commenting more on the other guys offer (Staal, Tangradi, 1st for Stajan, Antopov and Grabovski).

    If your barometer for success is "must have scored 30 goals", well, Staal had 29 as a 17 year old. I guess he's failed and you're right- he'll just never be scorer since he hasn't scored 30 goals by the time he was 20. No one ever becomes a scorer after they've passed this point, right?

    Staal had 28 goals on the OHL as a 16 year old- his last year there. He could have played there 2 more seasons, but jumped straight to the NHL. If you don't think he'd have scored more than 30 goals in either of those seasons, you're crazy..

  3. habs79 says:

    Very true, so why trade for a defenceman and a center?

  4. BLUE_AND_WHITE says:

    "When has Nash been a 3rd line guy put in a defence-first role? Never."

    you responded to yourself for me, what more need I say. Staal has been a defensive player his entire career. YOU are the one expecting more.

    "Staal has 2 ppg this year- shows how much quality PP time he gets. He has a total of 9PPG in his career- most of his goals come even strength, when it's more fair game."

    yeah, his ice time isn't prime, but he does play on Crosby and Malkins wing quite often, and he gets lots of ice time. Malkin is playing with snipers, and has thus seen more of his production lie in assists than in Goals. Staal plays with playmakers (and can't fill the playmaker role if his life depended on it) , and thus more of his production lies in goals. To compare their goals is an odd way of looking at it.

    "I guess we won't know for a few years still. Based on his progress, I think he will be"

    progress? he scored 29 his first season, and hasn't ever come close. not sure what 'progress' you speak of.

    "Progressively worse? I didn't know 16 goals this year so far is less than 12 from all last season, LOL."

    but both are less than 29. having 16 goals this year isn't progress from 12 last year, its streakyness.

    "As for Turris, he scored like a hound in the BC hockey league- hardly a tough testing ground. He had 11 goals in the NCAA."

    11 goals is good in the NCAA, and the point is he scored. He showed the talent, and the flashes of brilliance. Staal? meh

    "No one ever becomes a scorer after they've passed this point, right? "

    No, but theres no reason to expect it. What about him suggest to you that he will be a big scorer? the fact that he once scored 29(2 years ago)? The fact that he was drafted 2nd overall? The fact that his brother is a big power forward? Watch him, look at the stats. He'll be a good player, but not worth kaberle and Stajan.

    Plenty of guys get rushed to the NHL, have a good first season, and simply never improve. I'm not willing to pay stajan and kaberle for a guy who may or may not improve.

  5. cam7777 says:

    yea, sorry, don't misunderstand.  Higgins is a fine player, and I actually like him just fine.  it's just, the fact that he's included in every rumored deal, and every journalists' two-bit proposal, and every fantasy scenario as being a major piece in bringing back a superstar has really tarnished his value in my mind.  not because of his play, but because it is so clear that the canadiens don't actually want him there, or at least, they feel that he is not necessary.

    Let's say that instead the Leafs asked for Halak, Subban and a 1st (at least).  Well, they could probably still pick up Higgins in the off-season pretty easily, as it is clear Gainey isn't terribly interested in keeping him around.  You just don't give up a player everybody would love to have, for a player that you don't really care one way or the other about.  You go after a guy the other team doesn't really want to give up…

  6. cam7777 says:

    yea, sorry, don't misunderstand.  Higgins is a fine player, and I actually like him just fine.  it's just, the fact that he's included in every rumored deal, and every journalists' two-bit proposal, and every fantasy scenario as being a major piece in bringing back a superstar has really tarnished his value in my mind.  not because of his play, but because it is so clear that the canadiens don't actually want him there, or at least, they feel that he is not necessary.

    Let's say that instead the Leafs asked for Halak, Subban and a 1st (at least).  Well, they could probably still pick up Higgins in the off-season pretty easily, as it is clear Gainey isn't terribly interested in keeping him around.  You just don't give up a player everybody would love to have, for a player that you don't really care one way or the other about.  You go after a guy the other team doesn't really want to give up…

  7. cam7777 says:

    yea, sorry, don't misunderstand.  Higgins is a fine player, and I actually like him just fine.  it's just, the fact that he's included in every rumored deal, and every journalists' two-bit proposal, and every fantasy scenario as being a major piece in bringing back a superstar has really tarnished his value in my mind.  not because of his play, but because it is so clear that the canadiens don't actually want him there, or at least, they feel that he is not necessary.

    Let's say that instead the Leafs asked for Halak, Subban and a 1st (at least).  Well, they could probably still pick up Higgins in the off-season pretty easily, as it is clear Gainey isn't terribly interested in keeping him around.  You just don't give up a player everybody would love to have, for a player that you don't really care one way or the other about.  You go after a guy the other team doesn't really want to give up…

  8. Shinoda27 says:

    It's not going to happen, its just Leaf fans dreaming. It's a rumor and nothing more…

    But to say the Pens will never be able to afford a top six winger is foolish. They are losing 10.7 million in salary from Satan, Fedetenko, Gill and Boucher this summer. Yes Scuderi will be in for a raise and so will Letang, but they have the depth to replace those guys from with in and alot more money to attract interest from other UFA's.

  9. habs79 says:

    Don't you think you are reading too much into "every rumored deal, and every journalists' two-bit proposal, and every fantasy scenario". I remember a time Antropov was in every rumour, and now not only is he still with Toronto but Burke is asking for a first rounder for him. Was there a rumour that Whitney was going to Anaheim for Kunitz? No GM puts ANY interest in rumours, as 99% of them are clearly pulled out of people asses. It doesn't diminish a players value, nor does it mean that a GM doesn't want to keep a player. As Pat Quinn once said as Vancouver's GM when asked about a Pavel Bure to Toronto trade "90% of a GM's job in this league is answering questions about stupid rumours". Now I'm not sure if that was an exact quote word for word, but it made the point that GM's really don't seem to like rumours, propbably cause it can give players the WRONG idea.

  10. cam7777 says:

    you can't just do wholesale changes of your team with AHL'ers every year just because you can't afford to give raises.  look at all the talent in Tampa, and they can't click because they figured a wholesale change will be good.  you can't just replace quality defensemen with whoever you can get either, it just doesnt work.  Do the math:

    Kunitz – Crosby
    Malkin – Sykora (assuming Sykora wants the same money, which he won't)
    Dupuis – Staal – Kennedy
    Cooke – Talbot – Godard 

    Gonchar – Orpik
    Letang – Goligoski (assuming Goligoski wants Coburn money, 1.3-1.5 mil)
    Scuderi – Eaton (assuming Scuderi wants to be paid between 1.5 and 2)

    Fleury –

    This team costs just under 54 million.  That leaves you about 3 million to sign a backup goalie, an extra forward, an extra d-man, and two scoring wingers for Crosby and Malkin.  Bu don't worry, I'm sure there's a whole bunch of those scoring wingers just waiting to sign for the league minimum.

    Even if you don't re-up Goligoski, Scuderi and Sykora, it's not like the Pens will be able to find replacements that will be immediately effective.  And now, outside Tangradi, there are esesntially no strong prospects left in the system….

  11. Shinoda27 says:

    Jordan Staal played on Malkins line in his first season and got 29 goals, he has not been any kind of fixture on Malkin or Crosby's line since then. I would be willing to wager he hasn't played 60 minutes this year with either of them. Thats not his fault, its coaching.
    That being said, if he was a 'superstar' he could produce for himself. But he is not. He depends on other people for his offense and nobody has been there for him.

    What you fail to realize is that it's his Defense that makes him so attractive as a 20 year old. Its because he has so much potential on both sides of the ice that the Penguins would not take that trade(let alone trade a power forward like tangradi). He is poised to be every bit as good as somebody like Mike Richards. And I would take that over Kaberle any day of the week.

  12. cam7777 says:

    well, have fun in the playoffs then….ask the flyers if they would have rather had richards or kaberle last post-season, when timmonen went down….

  13. kamullia says:

    One word: Laughable.

    Kaberle is not what the Penguins are specifically looking for as far as defensemen, and Tangradi was openly discussed as the key factor in trading Whitney because the Pens scouts are high on his potential as a power forward (and future Crosby linemate). Let alone that the Whitney trade took away a big headache as far as logjam in their D-corps and Kaberle would push it all back to square one.

    It is not that Kaberle would not help the Pens in general or that Staal is untouchable as far as trades, but simply put this trade does nothing for addressing what the Penguins’ organization has openly said are the key things (and only things) they are looking to change/address if possible…therefore, as it is described (Kaberle, Stajan, Tangradi, Staal) no chance.

    Tangradi will be in camp for the Pens next season and will be in Wilkes-Barre all year round, and Kaberle will not be with the Pens unless Burke trades him to Pittsburgh for peanuts or Kaberle makes the Pens his only choice to teams he would like to go to.

    Everything is possible in life, but this one? Extremely improbable.

  14. Shinoda27 says:

    So I'm guessing you think it makes more sense to take on Kaberle's 4.2 million salary and Stajans 1.7 Salary just so you can trade Staals 4 million one? That does make alot of sense.
    Dude…
    Try this lineup

    Kunitz – Crosby – UFA
    Staal – Malkin – Sykora
    Dupuis – Talbot – Cooke
    Thomas – Zigomanis – Kennedy
    Caputi
    Jeffery
    Tangradi

    Gonchar – Letang
    Orpik – Scuderi
    Goligoski – Eaton/UFA
    Alex Grant – Ben Lovejoy

    Fleury
    UFA/John Curry

    This team = 52 million

    -This leaves 4.5 million under the cap now. NHL attendance is higher than last year and TV ratings are also higher. There is every reason to believe that the cap will rise even though most everybody thinks it will fall.

    – I added this up with Scuderi and Letang getting raises of 2 million and Zigomanis and Kennedy at 800k. I can only guess at what it will really be and those two guys(Letang & Scuderi) will decide how much the Pens really have to spend.

    – Goligoski has 2 years left on his contract because he turned pro this year.

    I never said that the Penguins were going to go after Hossa, I meant that they could go after somebody like Kovalev, Brain Gionta or Mike Knuble- somebody around 3-3.5 million and still afford a defenseman at around 1.5.

    Yes I believe it is very do-able.

  15. Shinoda27 says:

    Why so they could say Richards? Maybe they should trade Richards and JVR for him, you know because he is the answer to everybody's problems except for the Leafs.

  16. cam7777 says:

    that's a good point actually.  but at the same time, hasn't it come out after the fact that Higgins was in fact offered in a number of deals.  for instance, last year, it's well known that the habs tried to use higgins, a prospect (grabovski) and a 1st to acquire both Sundin and Hossa (separately, obviously).

    so, you're right, but in Higgins case, I think there's a little bit of truth to the usually ridiculous circle of rumors.

  17. cam7777 says:

    hmm, well, I hardly said that.  I'm merely pointing out that forwards are easier to repalce than top 10 defensemen.  Kaberle is the answer to any team that already has an awesome offensive core.  He is after all the backbone of the Leafs offense, and they sit 10th in the league for goals scored with no really notable names outside of Nik Antropov.  In fact, half the roster is rookies, and he is still putting up solid numbers…

    I hardly suggested that the Flyers should trade JVR and Richards for him.  But if you watched last year's playoffs, you might have noticed that without a top defensemen, the Flyers absolutely fell apart.  You see, forwards are somewhat ineffective if no one can pass them the puck…

  18. broc says:

    "but both are less than 29. having 16 goals this year isn't progress from 12 last year, its streakyness. "

    That still doesn't fit the mold of "progressively worse". He's on pace for 20 goals (really not THAT far off from his 29), so he'll have gone from 29, to 12, back up to 20. And he's only 20 years old. Why you think he's nearly reached his maximum output as a growing 20 year old is beyond me. Of course it's streakiness- he just turned 20. Your expectations are skewed.

    And way to walk around all the hot shit. You mention more than once that he's never scored more than 30 goals anywhere, ever. He had 28 goals as a 16 year old in the OHL playing against 18-20 year olds(along with 10 playoff goals in only 19 games!), and HE COULD'VE PLAYED 2 MORE YEARS IN THE OHL. If he gets 28 goals as a 16 year old, he probably would've got 40-50 goals each of those next 2 years. If you don't see that, you're blind. Heck, Pittsburgh was going to keep LeTang in the lineup that first year, but they sent HIM back b/c Staal impressed them so much. Show me the last 17 year old to get around 29 goals in the NHL.

    Like I said, most power forwards aren't even in the NHL at 20, Staal has 3 seasons now. But you're comfortable with labelling him "never be a scorer" despite the fact he's already shown success as a very young player. You're nuts if you don't think he has 30-40 goal potential with better linemates and decent PP time. Of course he needs to work on his playmaking, but cripes man, he's 20!! When he's 24-30, you don't think he'll be getting more than 15-20 goals each year? I doubt many will agree with you.  MOST of Staal's time is 3rd line shutdown center, and he's usually had a cast of revolving wingers. He hasn't been cast in an offensive role, regardless of your claims.

  19. RealisticNick says:

    They are LW and C

  20. cam7777 says:

    you're probably not even reading this thread anymore, but you make some good points, so i thought i'd ask you what you think of this blockbuster trade for the penguins (and keep in mind, this is strictly fantasy, and im quite positive it would never happen) :

    To Anaheim:
    Sidney Crosby 
    To Pittsburgh:
    Corey Perry, Chris Pronger
     
    Evgeni Malkin – Peter Sykora
    Chris Kunitz – Jordan Staal – Corey Perry
    Pascal Dupuis – Max Talbot – Tyler Kennedy
    Matt Cooke – Mike Zigomanis – Eric Godard

    Chris Pronger – Sergei Gonchar
    Brooks Orpik – Kris Letang
    Rob Scuderi – Alex Goligoski

    MA Fleury

    Cap hit works out to about 55 million.  Except, it's not Letang that needs a raise next year, it's actually Goligoski.  For whatever reason, his contract started earlier.  Letang still only makes 835k next season.

    Basically, this trade gives Pittsburgh ONE superstar, and it's the one that the whole team plays better around.  Even right now.  Crosby is out for 3 games, and how is the team doing?  oh yea, 3 game win streak.  Staal gets to move into a second line centre role with real wingers.  Pronger = Championships….

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