Union Being Broken Today?

I am not sure if I am seeing things or not but the scuttlebutt with Eklund and his sources (including a Detroit radio station, WXYT) say that a faction of players are trying to undo the unthinkable acts of yesterday. The radio station is reporting that Brendan Shanihan couldn’t comment on what is going on right now for fear of getting in the way of what was going on.

Notice the dates for the buildings have yet to be released?

Kevin Greenstein at InsideHockey.com said eloquently today that “at 11:00 AM yesterday, when Bob Goodenow realized no more offers were coming from the league, he did his players a disservice by not accepting the owners offer and getting on with the game of hockey” Kevin is DEAD right. How can any player sit in front of a fan like you and I and say “On my share of a 42 million dollar cap – I can’t make ends meet?” It is a direct insult to the people who earn the income to be able to afford the five figure per year investment it takes to own season tickets to an NHL team.

My guess on what is going on right now is that JR, Pronger, Yzerman and Iginla are mounting an effort along with many other players to undo what happened yesterday and to save the game from itself as well as to save the players hundreds of millions of dollars in lost revenues from the season being canceled. I wish them luck.

Bettman has reason to listen to a player offer. He can save his owners BILLIONS of dollars in overall team value. He can save what is left of his NBC TV deal. And most importantly, he can DESTORY his enemy, Bob Goodenow. Is it legal for the players to break from the union and negotiate on their own? I am not sure. Nor do I care. If 70 percent of the players came back, we all will welcome the new faces to our team along with the reported radical rule changes designed to open up the game.

Something is brewing. I have not given up hope on this year’s season. Assault me if you must but I have stuck with my stance and I am STILL sticking with it. I think this deal is still going down.

42 Responses to Union Being Broken Today?

  1. Flyers_Fan_In_LA says:



    wayne, mario and Yzerman are in on whatever is going down says ESPN.

    TSN.ca report denies it.

    Strange things are a foot at the Circle K

    Bill Daily alludes to “loving to have the problem” of unclancling the season.

    OK players, you know what to do.

  2. Freeze says:

    It’s time to pull the goalie and get a deal done.

    Good luck, guys!!!

  3. ranger_fan says:

    I’m sorry, but all I heard was blah blah blah I’m a dirty tramp.

    Still listening to Eklund huh? Let me ask you a question…Why are you praying so much to see a season? Why are you refreshing Eklunds page every minute? If it was good hockey we are seeing, with no trap, and very entertaining, thats great. The NHL is at a low, and there is little to gain by accepting a deal that Goodenow has had up. The players are weak, because they aren’t united, and need to find a better head of the union.

  4. habsoverserver says:

    The deadline for a season is still March first.

    The deadline for me being interested was Feb. 15th.

    Like I said all along, if they could overthrow the godless commie in charge, the could get a deal.

    In the end, yes it is fixable and yes they could have a season. But let’s face it, while some co-dependent fans will rush back to the arena to supply the revenues that will once again lead to another work stoppage, those of us basking in mental health will spend our time more wisely.

    Somebody wake me up when it’s worth giving a crap.

    I challenge anyone to give me one good reason why it would be worth donating any of my money or my emotional energy to a remotely possible 28 game shame of a season, brought on only by the players’ love of my money.

    I am starting a fan’s union and as soon as the lockout ends, I’m locking the players, the owners, the bloggers and the clueless media in that empty arena and throwing away the key. Then you’re all invited to my house for beers.

  5. RichterFan says:

    You know it’s funny. Although I love the sport too much to see it go without a season, I actually agree with you. Count me in. What are we drinking?

  6. Freeze says:

    “I challenge anyone to give me one good reason why it would be worth donating any of my money or my emotional energy to a remotely possible 28 game shame of a season, brought on only by the players’ love of my money. “

    Why? Because you’re addicted like the rest of us. Admit it.

  7. physicalsap says:

    I’m optimistic that there will be hockey, but i can’t help but chuckle about the Pens being regarded as a “tanking” team who will be in the running for Crosby with the rangers and the caps according to Flyers Fan, if there is a 30 game season, the new and improved, well prepared for this situation, speedy and skilled young penguins with a good mix of veteran help from recchi and mario will be in the playoffs, and could do some damage

  8. habsoverserver says:

    Addicted to what? Spending $140 to see the Rangers take 17 shots in a losing effort against a Mario-less Penguins team?

    Long ago, I used to be addicted, but my addiction got hacked, high sticked, interfered, trapped and one-foot-in-the-creased out of existence.

  9. Flyers_Fan_In_LA says:

    Dude, MA Fluerry is 100% unproven. Can the team even afford to pay him? And who’s infront of him? Dick Tanstrom and Brooks Orpik. C’mon.

    Mark Recchi is a warrior but he can’t carry the load. Mario is uncertain if he could make it 30 games with his history of injuries. Who else are they going to get? Zhamnov? He turned down 4 mill x 4 years from the Flyers (smart move Alex! now look what you have)?

    I like Ryan Malone and Rico Fata for prospects. Malkin too but it is unlikely he plays here in this season that doesn’t seem to be.

    The best bet for the Pens would have been to tank JUST like they did in the past. Toss Crosby on this team and you might just find someone to buy the franchise and move them to Hamilton.

  10. RichterFan says:

    Thats if the Pens don’t fold. Maybe there is still a chance they will move to Edmonton but time is running out on them in Pitt.

  11. kicksave856 says:

    i agree with the addiction thing.

    i also agree with the beers thing.

  12. nordiques100 says:

    just think about it. seeing what is being said on that blog is a bad idea because it just gives us again some false hope. but those recent posts from Eklund just have too many holes in it.

    lets look at this a bit closer. Panger said that the players are angry. sure, i would be too, i just lost 1.2 billion dollars for no good reason. and if i was goodenow, i wouldnt want to talk to anyone either. it probably hasnt been an easy last year for him and to see his work go down the tubes is demoralizing.

    eklund posts that there is lots of wishful thinking out there after he says something is brewing. of course it is just wishful thinking as it is truly unbeleivable for any sport to cancel an entire year. and when you cant beleive it you get yourself in denial.

    then we hear that sources in pheonix know of something brewing with players and saskin. considering pheonix is not much of a hockey hotbed, the likelihood of a person there finding too much hockey info is slim at best.

    and the same statement that there is fire out there was mentioned over and over. but no specifics are given. just lots of off the record comments and leaks.

    considering how accurate radio sources are (i.e howard berger from fan 590), it is pretty odd for shanny to say that talks are going on and that is why he couldnt go on radio. by saying that he has said enough already without the need to go on air. this is not really beleivable. i dont think he would do something like that. perhaps he had other arrangements which is why he couldnt make it. perhaps the “there are talks going on” statement was just made up and said in sarcasm by the annoucers. many words can be misinterpreted.

    and i always want to know what is meant by a close source. the security guard who let them in the meeting room? he is standing outside the door so that is pretty close. the secretary’s secretary’s assistant who got bill daly a cup of coffee? i mean close sources has been beaten to death and from november til now on the blog, it appears they have been all wrong that this is going to get done.

    and we get eklund to wet our appetite by saying this could get done and the season could get saved……. then he shuts himself up saying he doesnt want to hurt the process. the season is cancelled, how much more damage can anyone do?

    just see too many holes in what he is saying for it to be beleivable.

    and if the TV deal gets cancelled, what is the big deal? i mean they wont get any money anyway from it unless they meet certain criteria. it wasnt like they got NBC to give them money up front. so really i doubt that NBC could put that much pressure considering they dont have anything invested yet.

    i dont mean to be so pessimistic. i want hockey too, but if there was a slim chance, then someone wouldnt have decided to annouce the season as being cancelled. the time has passed, i think people should give up trying to find something that isnt there.

    i think it is best for them to start fresh, take some time away to reflect and get back at it with a fresh outlook and not try to desperately put together a bandaid solution just to save a 20 game season. i mean this is big money here, so no sense to rush it now after going this far. i mean now they can have a third party look at all the books, give both sides the numbers tehy come up with and since the third party is neutral, the numbers should be agreed upon and then a new deal can be crafted from there. that is the only way to get this done, if the numbers are painted black and white.

  13. Freeze says:

    Oh, you’re a Ranger$ fan. No wonder. This is starting to make sense.

  14. habsoverserver says:

    I never said I was a Rangers fan. I live in NYC, so I attend mostly Rangers games.

  15. RichterFan says:

    I’ve sent an e-mail to the NHLPA which states……

    To whoever reads this. Please inform Bob Goodenow that we the fans are very displeased by his failure to work out a deal with the league. Although most of us believe that there is no one side who is right we do feel that it was up to the union to accept the deal that was handed to them at the final hour. If you do not work out a deal soon you will see a lockout of which you could not of imagined. I mean a lockout of which the union, players and the league will be locked out by the fans. We are not stupid and we wish you would not treat us like we are. So let this be a warning. We are serious about this. I am not just one angry fan I am one of millions of PAYING fans who will certainly have no problem spending our money elsewhere. Good day to you.

    I doubt I will get any response to it but I just needed to vent.

  16. hockeyhead says:

    amen, they need contraction and they refuse to do it so let’s forget about it…..i mean the nhl brand of hockey sucks….lets have world cup touneys every month.

  17. Kraftster says:

    Fitting of a flyers fan to show very little knowledge of the Pens. Dude, if you really want me to tell you why you are wrong about them, let me know. Otherwise, I would advise against acting like you know the Penguin’s team.

  18. rojoke says:

    Is it legal for the players to break from the union and negotiate on their own?

    Why wouldn’t it be legal for the membership to tell the executive what to do. If 50% plus 1 of the membership told Bob, Ted, Trevor and the negotiating committee to accept the league’s last offer, they would be bound to do it. Unless they have a threshold for rejection other than a simple majority. Or they could just decertify the NHLPA and join the PHPA, which represents most of the players in the various minor leagues, or form a new association.

  19. Freeze says:

    Oh, OK. When you mentioned, “Spending $140 to see the Rangers take 17 shots in a losing effort against a Mario-less Penguins team..” I got the impression that you were perhaps hoping for a winning Ranger effort. Anyway, my mistake.

    Have you considered relocation?

  20. Aetherial says:

    It is perfectly legal for any individual player to negotiate whatever he wants.

    The problem is, that there will not be a league to play in unless there is a CBA.

    That happens with this union, with another union (if this one is broken). A Declaration of impasse will not necessarily involve a new CBA. The owners could simply open the doors, tell people what is being offered … there does not *have* to be an NHLPA, and therefore does not have to be a formal CBA… of course this is only true if an impasse is successfully declared and defended. That is something I am still not convinced is feasible or even desireable.

    Now as to these *secret meetings*.

    Fuhgetaboudit. Nothing will come of this even if there is a *this* going on and I am not convinced there is.

  21. Aetherial says:

    I live in Toronto. I watch the Leafs on TV. I RARELY (like once or twice a year) will watch a different team play. I don’t care about any other team.

    I also don’t pay to go to Leaf games. I attend maybe 1-2 a year, usually in a box either through my own work or a friend’s company’s box.

    There is NO WAY IN HELL I would have paid ticket prices before… when I can watch on TV for free. So, as much as I think the whole league is a joke, it costs me nothing to watch if it comes back and *withholding* something from the league is meaningless to me.

    I would LOVE to see an organized revolt.

    Imagine how great it would be to have a season of rolling walkouts… where a new team plays to an empty building every night.

    Even if the ticket sales are still there… it would sense a VERY powerful message.

    Sadly, fan revolts never happen in an organized way. I think there will be some serious *iniformal* erosion though of the fan base.

  22. werdo says:

    The association may or may not be broken, but I wouldn’t expect the league to start the season up any time soon.

    Both parties have gone into this “negotiation” with impasse as the goal. Both have gambled that the courts will back their position.

    If the union wins in the courts, it’s back to the status quo, and hockey will end up like baseball (or european soccer for that matter), with limitless salaries, huge disparities in payroll and a have and have-not league. Small market teams will have to learn to work within their own budgets and get used to losing. Market like crazy to try to get people to buy seasons tickets to watch 15 wins a season.

    If the league wins, there will be twenty caps and a 50% roll back, pushing salaries back to 1994 levels. Well, maybe not that bad.

    The whole last minute negotiation was just positioning for the eventual court battle over impasse. Both gave up a little to give the impression of being willing to negotiate. Both hoped the other side wouldn’t accept their offer. Bettman threw in the “final offer” comment at the end intentionally to rile Goodenow to make sure he wouldn’t accept the offer. Look, the day after the season’s cancelled, several owners are quoted as saying there WILL be hockey in September.

    Look forward to a long summer of legal action and a lot of long faces on the players in September.

  23. nordiques100 says:

    fluery is great prospect, better than the flyers goalie prospect nittimaki. he is the best goalie prospect out there.

    alot of flyer fans are very high on carter, richards, umberger but they are 100% unproven too if fluery is and fluery has at least some NHL experience. he fared badly due to a poor defence but with orpik and whitney to anchor it for years to come and all those guys growing together, the pens should be ok. it will take time. sure they would like crosby but i cant see them tanking it as they have had that kind of team for years.

    washington and the rangers on the other hand are tanking it.

  24. hockeyhead says:

    yaa, relocate to switzerland to see joe thornton play for davos.

    i agree with overserver (habs)….i boycotted bruins games last year because it is not worth the value of a ticket vs. the value of the game.

    we need serious change and since they will not consider getting rid of teams then it is useless.

    i mean if the leading scorer is not averaging 1.5 points a game (which they don’t cuz that would be 120 points a year) then i would rather watch water polo.

    the players want the money but the fans don’t want the 1-1 shootouts. YIPPIe

  25. kicksave856 says:

    Yeah, Kraftster ADVISES it!

    Penguin fans suck. They know nothing about hockey. They all have hemophilia and I’d ADVISE you steer clear of them.

    There are a few more idiotic generalizations regarding an entire team’s fan base, just like “Leave it to a Flyers fan to blah, blah, blah”.

    Don’t trash all Flyer fans because you don’t agree with one Flyer fan. It makes you sound jealous. Flyers fans are among the smartest and most passionate this league has to offer.

    Why would you EXPECT a Flyer fan to have any knowledge regarding the Penguins? Why would you expect ANYBODY to know anything about a perennial 65 point team? If you don’t like what someone said about your team, and you’re under the impression that you have some knowledge, spread the wealth. Don’t say something idiotic without thinking about what you’re saying. That’s like a Predator fan saying that Redwing fans don’t know the Preds. Why would they?

    Look, dude. If you’re angry, that’s cool. But you can’t show it. If you’re the type to start arguments on the internet (and from your post, unfortunately, it seems you are), don’t show your anger in the first response to a post you don’t agree with, and definitely don’t allow it to make you say such stupid things.

    Flyers fans are some of the best in hockey. They turned out during the teams 5 year playoff hiatus, as if nothing was wrong. The Penguins are the Penguins. I’m not going to sit here and rehash all that’s wrong with the organization, nor do I really care enough to further know the details of such a mess.

    If you think you have good players in the system, a chance to keep your team in Pittsburgh, or a chance to make the playoffs ever again- that’s all good. But these two teams aren’t even comparable right now, and they haven’t been for years. As far as organizations go, they were never comparable. And as far as the fan base goes, I know what I’ve seen in Philly, and I know what I’ve seen in Pittsburgh. If I was a Pens fan, I’d probably just keep my mouth shut about Flyer fans (and probably most other team’s fans).

    You should leave your obvious bias at the door. It doesn’t look good on you.

  26. Tops04 says:

    I think hockey is pretty good the way it is. Call the penalties, that’s all.

    If you don’t want to watch it, then don’t. Simple as that.

  27. Tops04 says:

    If you’re not interested, then put your money where your mouth is, and stop writing about it.

    As for the 28 game season, I think it will be fun.

    So what if someone wins the Cup and has to have an asterisk beside it to say it didn’t mean as much as all the other Cups. I know a lot of fans that would go for that.

    If you look at the options you either have no hockey (hold onto the integrity of a 80+ game cup run), or you have this shortened season.

    I love hockey played at the highest level, thus I go for option 2.

    You have no interest anymore, so probably won’t even read this or reply to it. Right?

  28. Tops04 says:

    Penguins fans are well represented. Some of the most optimistic people around.

    I think you may be right, go for the Cup.

  29. Flyers_Fan_In_LA says:

    I would love to hear you tell me how your team is even going to try o make the playoffs with you best young stars stuck in Russia and another one about to turn 40. Add in a front office that can’t pay 3 mill to play a young goaile. How about a Defense that is 2 players deep.

    C’mon, I want to hear it. (it will be better than talking CBA)

  30. hockeyhead says:

    i do want to watch it (but don’t like it)

    why cant we have hockey like it was? do you like a league that can barely muster a 50 goal scorer?

    hockey is supposed to be fast paced with a lot of action…ie college hockey does not have trapping.

  31. Tops04 says:

    Well it’s on TSN now. So is that more credible?

    It’s not a bad thing to hope. That’s all this is.

  32. kicksave856 says:

    Cub fans are optimistic too.

  33. wingedim says:

    Over the course of the final week, how many credilble sources were saying that no negotiations were going on? MOST of them. Eklund was one of the few that was keeping hope alive by informing us of the back channel deals.

    I found that when information was posted by the ‘credible’ sources it was close to what Eklund was reporting. I found I was checking Eklund’s site before TSN or any of the others.

    I would like to see a ‘sprint’ for the cup, as I think it would bring back some excitement to the game again as teams would be more likely taking more chances. Make it a double knockout tourney or something like that so that one bad game could kill you.

  34. nordiques100 says:

    would a season be nice? sure of course it would, but i was just pointing out that a few people here have hung on every word this eklund has said and until it comes out more mainstream like TSN then there may be something happening. i just didnt really trust some of those sources like Pheonix from where his info was coming from. and even shanny’s agent said that radio station fabricated that story. and eklund was wrong once after he said over and over that a deal was done only for there not to be one.

    there is nothing wrong with having some hope, it is just that to put it in perspective, the season has already been cancelled and it still remains that way today. i just dont want to get too excited and have my hopes crushed again. there is just no point in looking forward to NHL hockey until all the I’s have been dotted and T’s crossed and whatever new rules and other things they have are fully put in place and a schedule is put out and the puck is dropped.

    the two sides have been known to waiver, to lie, to sell out eachother and us fans so where it may seem things could be happening and things could get done and could be close to being done, in an instant the stance may chance and we are back to nothing again.

  35. habsoverserver says:

    I don’t really care who wins the games, so long as they are entertaining. If the home team can’t shoot and the star of the away team doesn’t play, the entertainment value is not so high.

    I’m all for relocating the Rangers – preferably to another continent. Maybe you could get the Avs or the Habs to play at MSG?

  36. Kraftster says:

    Well, you did an awful good job of doing exactly what you complained that I did. First off, as to whether I am one to start arguments on the internet with stupid comments, that is false. I am sure that you are a relative new comer to this site, and I will alert you to the fact that I have posted numerous non-argumentative, extremely intriguing articles on this site in the past. I have not posted on this site for months until today. I left because of an overwhelming Toronto contingency which basically turned this into a few team site, rather than an NHL site.

    The reason that I was so short in my comment was because as you will learn if this site remains anything like it was before I left, it isn’t exactly common that people reply to comments of comments, so instead of spending an hour of my time, to type something up and get nothing in response, I cast a line to see if there would be any reason to bother posting my feelings.

    With that out of the way, I was most curious as to why you labeled the team with the third highest winning pct. in the 90s a perennial 65 point team? IF you want to be historic in terms of total team history, sure the flyers have got us, but recent history, I think you are off the mark.

    What possible “bias” did I show in my reply? That I support my team?? That would seem to be exactly the reason that a wing’s fan wouldn’t know the preds, etc. as you mentioned. How did I show bias?

    I’m not blind, I know the Pens, and I know the NHL. I am not going to sit here and tell you that they have one of the top teams in the league, but I’m not gunna let them get bashed by a cross state rival when it’s not justified.

    And you ADVISE me to stay away from Pens fans. I’d rather be around Pittsburgh sports fans than any other, sure partly because I share their love of Pitts sports, but they tend to be pretty great. The Steelers ( I know a diff. sport) have probably one of the broadest, if not the broadest fan bases in the country.

    For hating all of my 2 line post so much, you did an awful good job of replicating it…

  37. Flyers_Fan_In_LA says:


    Bloger says the NHLPA is coming to NYC to meet tomorrow.

    Yahoo says they are likely meeting.

    This is happening. I am telling you. I have BEEN telling you guys. It ain’t over YET. (soon possibly but not yet)

    The thing that I make note of is the fact that the league and teams have NOT released the dates for the games yet.

    Also Bettman REALLY WINS in this event EVEN if he needs to compromise just a little more – say a 43.5 cap. The reason is – his franchises save BILLIONS in depreciation that will certainly happen and save an ugly fight to break the union. Heck, they are breaking RIGHT before our eyes (and isn’t it beautiful?)

    Stay tuned people!!!!

  38. kicksave856 says:

    Warm up the button machine?

  39. kicksave856 says:


    whatever you’re rambling about aside, my point is that you said something to the effect of “typical flyer fan… blah, blah, blah”, and that’s just crap. you know it. but it ‘s fine, man. relax.

    if that read like i was all swoll about it or something, that was not the intent.

    i wasn’t even trying to bash you (i actually thought i was pretty gentle to your situation). i’d hate to see your reaction if i had been!

    oh, and the “advising people to stay away from Pitt fans” was a JOKE. it also said they were all hemopheliacs, did you take that part seriously too?


  40. Kraftster says:

    First, the Penguins more or less broke even last year. That puts them above probably at least 10-12 teams last year, they COULD have afforded the Fleury bonus, but they choose to send him down/let him go to juniors. They went out and signed Recchi, so they obviously had the money, but the thinking was, why spend it on Fleury when he will definitely gain some more valuable international experience, and the season is lost at that point anyway….

    To the actual team…

    Be reminded that the Penguins finished the season last year 12-5-3 with the best powerplay in the league over that stretch. The WB Pens went on to advance to the AHL Finals, with unreal goaltending from Andy Chiodo, who is a very solid young goalie. I’m not sure what 2 players you are referring to, Aleksey Morozov is in russia and would not have been in the nhl this year had they worked out the cba, so that is one, but no other player is stuck in russia. If Malkin is the other, I doubt he is a “young star”, if he is, then fine, he’s stuck, but I wasn’t even considering malkin. I should say that I spoke assuming that the unsigned restricted players would be signed, etc. Ryan Malone, who easily could have won the Calder, had a great rookie season, Milan Kraft, finished the year the way the Pens had hoped when they drafted him. Konstantin Koltsov, probably the fast player in the NHL, had a very respectable rookie season. Rico Fata, though inconsistent, is certainly a capable 3rd to 2nd liner. Of course Mario and Recch will help the already potent powerplay exponentially. The rest of the offense is definitely on the unproven side of things. there is some real talent there, and my hope would be that someone would step up. WB is putting up some strong numbers this year, and if even a couple guys could make a decent transition to the NHL game, there would be 3 solid lines for the Pens. Guys like Murley, Surovy, Abid (who is supposed to have rehabed very hard after his knee injury), Endicott are putting up decent numbers, while Beech has really come on with the help of the real scoring talent in Michel Ouellet, who is having no sophomore slump. Meanwhile, former first rounder Colby Armstrong is still waiting to get his shot. Throw in Mike Eastwood, Lasse Pirjeta, Matt Bradley who are all servicable players, you have a decent team no doubt. Ric Jackman found what it was that made him a first round pick. Dick Tarnstrom proved to be a top teir dman, and great PP Point man. Brooks Orpik will be the Pens next captain and is a sure bet to be one of the next generations best bruiser dmen. Ryan Whitney is playing great for WB, and would have had needed a little time to adjust to NHL speed, but with everyone having some rust to some degree, that would have helped him make the transition. Rob Scuderi, who you may not have heard of would have been a consistent smart dman, probably not frequently out of position. Melichar makes 6 dmen, and he is a fine dman for a 6th D. May not be a top D, but with the way the Pens play, these dman can do a plenty capable job. With MA Fleury and Andy Chiodo in goal, probably riding whoever is hot, I certainly think the Pens could go on the kind of run necessary to get into the playoffs in a 28 game season.

    I think the team I just described is in better shape than Atlanta, Washington, New York, Carolina, Florida, and I think certainly on par with teams like Buffalo, NYI, and Montreal. If they were to win 7 of 10 games against those teams and go .500 the remaining games, that would certainly be enough to get into the playoffs, and I think they would probably do better than that. Remember this isn’t the team that went 17 winless last year, they came together at the end of the year, added one consistently strong vet, and the greatest player of all time, who would certainly manage the 28 game schedule. I just think there is enough there for a playoff run, and at the very very least, enough there to not be a laughing stock as they seem to continue to be after having the 3rd highest winning pct. in the 90s, after just 3 “rebuilding” seasons.

  41. kicksave856 says:

    Isn’t there a Devils fan, or someone that I don’t have to feel sorry for when they speak?

Leave a Reply