Zubrus to TO? Nolan to Calgary.

According to FAN590, Dainius Zubrus would now be a Leaf… more to come.

According to TSN, Owen Nolan is now a Calgary Flame for 1 year, 2M$ (including bonuses)

84 Responses to Zubrus to TO? Nolan to Calgary.

  1. habs_punk says:

    I have the strangest feeling of deja vu. It seems we've had this conversation before. You called me a kid, I told you that you look foolish calling people older than you "kid", and you made a smart ass response that made absolutely no sense. If you want to go through it all again, go for it. I guess you've got a lot of free time on your hands now that high school's out for the summer. Here's a suggestion, you could use that free time of yours to learn how to read. Just an idea.

    I never suggested the Toskala trade was a failure, I merely questioned the move due to the fact that JFJ has poured a ton of money into scouting since he's been the Leafs GM.

    I think you're doing a poor job extrapolating your personal opinions to everyone else on the boards. Me forfeiting any chance of having my opinion taken seriously merely because I stated that Hamrlik is Montreal's number 2 defenseman right now? By the way, he is much better than Kubina. The hypocrisy in your post is spread so thickly that it's hard to actually see anything worth reading. You accuse me of being overly optimistic about my team and overly critical of your team, while at the same time doing the exact same thing to me. I criticized the McCabe and Kubina signings, which is something that many Leaf fans will agree with. I never criticized the Blake signing or the Toskala trade, I merely tried to temper the over-enthusiastic response from the Leaf fans. I fully admit they were both good moves, but you'd be a fool to suggest there's no downside to both, I merely brought up points that no one seemed to be considering. Even if Blake only puts up 25 goals this season, I will agree that it was a good move by JFJ, I'm only saying that you shouldn't expect 40.

    You are right that Montreal's power play will suffer significantly with the loss of Souray. I already said that. You're only reiterating what I have already said, and trying to prove me wrong by doing so. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. However, as I said, Hamrlik and Smolinski significantly help Montreal's even strength play, which was a MAJOR concern last season. We sacrificed one of our strengths to improve our main weakness.

    Montreal doesn't have a lack of depth on the blueline in general. They have a lack of depth in their top 4. If Streit steps it up, they'll be fine. Markov, Hamrlik, and Komisarek are legitimate top 4 defensemen. Then we've got at least 5 or 6 guys that can play the 5th and 6th spots and hopefully fill in at the number four spot. Dandenault, Bouillon, Cote, Streit, Gorges, and Biron are all capable NHLers. There's no lack of overall defensive depth, but it's true that another top 4 guy would greatly help.

    This year is a perfect example of how the rankings of players in the first round isn't always universally accepted. And no, scouts don't make their money finding talent in the later rounds. It's always excellent when you get a steal in the later rounds, but it happens so infrequently, and the percentage of late picks that turn into true NHLers is so low, and while some teams may have a higher percentage of late round steals, the overall percentage is so low that you've got absolutely no argument here.

    That final paragraph is so completely idiotic that I don't know whether I should take offense to it, or just laugh my ass off. Gainey has already built a Stanley Cup champion team, what has JFJ done? Gainey "doesn't have the sack to correct his own mistakes"???? Theo was a mistake, he corrected that mistake. Samsonov was a mistake, he corrected that mistake. Carbo was not a mistake, Carbo made some rookie mistakes, but he is perfectly suited to be an NHL head coach. He will be much better this year, and will continue to improve in the years to come. What would everyone be saying if Bob fired Carbo and he went on to have future success with another team ala Therrien, Julien, and Vigneault? Carbo will be a better coach than all of these guys, with the possible exception of Julien.
    So Gainey can't correct his own mistakes? He's made two and corrected both of them. JFJ still hasn't done anything about the McCabe and Kubina contracts he signed. And the jury is still out on Toskala, maybe he did fix that mistake, but then again, maybe he only compounded it. Raycroft will be even worse this year, there's no way he has any confidence left. If Toskala proves he can be the go-to guy for 60+ games this season, then you can say JFJ has fixed that mistake. Of course if Rask becomes a superstar in Boston, there is no fixing that mistake.

  2. habs_punk says:

    There's no more Aebischer in Montreal. Whether it's Huet, Halak, or Price, Hamrlik will be playing in front of an excellent goalie in Montreal as well. In case you want to argue this fact, Huet was an all star last year, Halak was the best AHL goalie and was excellent for the Habs when he was called up, Price will only be the starter if he's absolutely ready and playing like he did in the Calder Cup playoffs last year. That's three guys with the potential to have an amazing season, and if one or two of them don't have an amazing year, there's still the third guy. It isn't very likely they will all have off years.

    There's no reason to believe Hamrlik won't be just as solid this year as he was last year, and even his last five NHL seasons, where he's a combined +60. By the way, three of those years were with the Isles.

  3. bleeds_blue_n_white says:

    Not to be too critical as I like what Zubrus may bring to the Leafs, but would prefer to leave the cap space and the roster spot for youth, and start bringing up Tlusty, Williams, Earl, Kulemin, etc.

    If not this year, then next, and Zubrus will probably be a multiyear deal.

    I do question the lines above however, as I believe this would be a problem. You have Tucker playing Center on a line with 2 guys who have played center, in Bell and Zubrus. Tucker is a winger, not a centerman.

    Also, 3 wingers on the top line? Wellwood is natural down the middle, and would be a great fit on the second line moving Tucker, Zubrus or possibly one of Poni/Antropov to the first line.

    Lastly, Battaglia just resigned, so your 4th line is most likely going to be Devereaux, Battaglia and Pohl.

    That means, barring a trade, we have 13 forwards with no kids brought up from the farm.

    Why not leave Zubrus, leave a roster spot to start auditioning the kids and bring up some of the talent we have developing?

    Just my $0.02

  4. habs_punk says:

    If Hamrlik's +22 is just average because of the team he played on and the goalie he played in front of, does that mean Phaneuf's +10 makes him horrible defensively? Hamrlik's +22 was behind only Langkow and Regehr, on the Flames, and +10 ahead of Tanguay and Iginla for 5th.

  5. the_word says:

    I had a deja vu feeling when I read your screenname, oh wait I'm mistaken I didn't, because I've never been to Simple Plan's message board. If you're gonna to talk down to me, be funny or clever, otherwise you won't get under my skin.

    Ok, so in questioning the decision of JFJ in signing Blake or trading a 1st round pick, you're not suggesting there bad moves.  Right……

    My hypocrisy? I don't think so, nice try son, I said Kubina was a mistake, but I'll take Kubina at 15 million for the next three years over Hamrlik at 22 over the next four years in a heartbeat. Hamrlik is an uglier contract than Kubina's.  One mistake is bigger and more expensive than the other.

    "By the way, he is much better than Kubina." Awesome argument, you make a strong point in neglecting to provide an evidence or premise to support your claim. Your supposed years of wisdom are really shinning through on this one.

    I'm not marginalizing the PP issue with the Habs like you did.

    Ok Montreal has depth in terms of garbage defenseman, wow, what a feather in your cap. The reality is Montreal's blueline is so thin that Hamrlik is paired with Markov.

    Every scout in the league knows who should be drafted with the top 30 picks every year, no one distinguishes themselves from other scouts in the first round.  Thats why Detroit's staff is so impressive, they've picked up many players in the later rounds.

    Samsonov wasn't corrected, they took bad contracts of less talented players back from Chicago. Yeah, he traded Theo 2 years ago and has done nothing all that impressive since.

    McCabe isn't an issue, you clearly like to piggy back on the tired memes that litter this board, after the price of UFA defensemen today, McCabe contract is a steal, look at his numbers, that alone justifies his contract.  Can't say that about many Habs.

    To even suggest Hamrlik is a more accomplished or skilled defenseman than Kubina is laughable. If you want to disagree, go to tsn.ca and read what people who are paid to be objective think of both of these players (I'll save you some time, Kubina top pairing defenseman and Hamrlik top four).

    Gainey winning a cup in a pre cap LNH doesn't mean shit, but I can see how you'd like to go back and look at a team he built eight years ago if you're trying to defend him.

    I see where this discussion is going, keep it on track, my point was that JFJ is doing a better job than Gainey.   JFJ  isn't the LNH's best GM, but he's certainly not the worst and he's actively making the Leafs better, can't say the same thing about Gainey.

  6. the_word says:

    If you're not even willing to admit that their is a significant link between goaltending and +/- you clearly have no interest in honesty debate.  Its not a big deal anyway, +/- is an overrated stat, I don't think Ottawa is all that sad about losing Tom Priessing (one of the few UFA dmen that didn't fetch a huge contract despite his league leading +/-).

  7. LEAFS877 says:

    I didn't think the leafs or Isles would end up with Zubrus

    According to TSN Zubrus signed a six year deal with NJ

  8. the_word says:

    Coaching another key decision where JFJ outshines Gainey, but let me guess you probably think Carbs is better than Maurice, huh. Thats cute.

    What would I say if Bob fires Carbo tomorrow? "Well Done"

    The only time Gainey has made a tough decision is when he's been forced too, i.e. Theodore underachieves for an extended period of time or Samsonov plays himself out of the line up and asks for a trade.

    And didn't Gainey resign Kovalev? Love the best of Bob, keep the those hits coming.

    Even if Toskala is a bust, at least JFJ addressed the issues of this lineup, thats what GMs are supposed to do. To suggest Raycoft will be worse this year is pretty ambitious, he was pretty bad last year. Having half the work load makes it more likely to make him a better goaltender, not to mention the incentive of having to prove himself all over.

    I wouldn't hold my breath over Rask becoming a superstar. Its a moot point if Pogge turns out better than Rask anyway.

  9. habs_punk says:

    If YOU'RE going to talk down to me, try to make sense. What the hell are you talking about? You think that's funny or clever to keep saying "Simple Plan this" and "Simple Plan that"? That first sentence doesn't even remotely fit in any sort of intelligent thought process. If all you've got is extremely weak comments directed at my screen name, then you really are quite pitiful. But if you're so hung up on that and just won't let it ago, I guess I should address it, despite the fact it is not even remotely hockey related. This has been my screen name on numerous message boards for probably longer than you've been old enough to use a computer. I made it when I was much younger, and a huge fan of punk music. At that point I fancied myself as somewhat of a punk, and being a huge Habs fan, the name "habs_punk" just seemed to fit, not to mention it was fairly original, and to this day I have never seen anyone else using a similar screen name. I have continued to use it to this day for that reason, and that reason alone. If I've got a perfectly good screen name, why the hell would I want to change it? And I've got no problem saying that Simple Plan is a perversion of actual punk.

    Now onto the actual hockey related content of your post.
    I see you haven't been using your new found free time to learn how to read. Next time don't even comment on something I said if you haven't taken time to actually read and understand what it is that I am saying. I never suggested the Blake and Toskala moves were bad moves, and I questioned them. These are not mutually exclusive actions. When it comes to Blake, I think it was a good move by JFJ regardless of whether he puts up 25 goals or 40, so I'm not really questioning that one at all. I merely questioned the intelligence of trading your first and second round picks after going to so much trouble to appear to be focused on drafting and developing talent. If Toskala is able to play 60+ games of solid hockey for Toronto, this is an excellent move for JFJ.

    Kubina has already proven to be a costly mistake, Hamrlik has yet to play a game in a Habs uniform and so cannot be considered a mistake at this point. He is a very intelligent and defensively sound defenseman. He has put up solid numbers, and will very likely be an extremely valuable asset to the Habs this coming season.

    Fine, I'll back up my claims that Hamrlik is far superior to Kubina with stats.
    -Both have played for very poor defensive teams in the past.
    -Hamrlik is a career -71 in 999 games
    -Kubina is a career -91 in only 592 games
    -Hamrlik has a career 0.51 points per game
    -Kubina has a career 0.39 points per game
    Last 5 years
    -Hamrlik is +60
    -Kubina is -25
    -Hamrlik has 171 points in 350 games for 0.49 points per game
    -Kubina has 150 points in 375 games for 0.40 points per game
    Last season
    -Hamrlik had 7 goals and 31 assists for 38 points and a +22 rating in 75 games.
    -Kubina had 7 goals and 14 assists for 21 points and a +7 rating in 61 games
    Is that enough proof for you?

    "Garbage defensemen" comment doesn't even warrant a response.
    And as I showed a few lines above this, with STATS, Hamrlik is a very capable number 2 defenseman. Whether or not he gets paired with Markov is a matter of chemistry, not talent.

    Again, this past season was proof against your claim of a set top 30 players that everyone seems to agree on. I watched a ton of draft coverage, and heard numbers as high as 60 regarding the number of players that had first round consideration. This past year, the only thing the majority of scouts agreed on was the top three prospects, and even then there was a lot of debate about which order they should be ranked in.

    How was the Samsonov contract not corrected? If they couldn't trade him, he would have been bought out. Instead they took a lesser contract that they could buy out for a smaller cap hit, and a player that will likely play in Hamilton and not affect the cap. That mistake was fixed as efficiently as it could have possibly been fixed.

    A lot of the criticisms of McCabe come from Leaf fans themselves. Living in Ontario, I interact with tons of Leaf fans on a daily basis, and the large majority of them are still pissed about the McCabe contract. His contract doesn't look as bad anymore after what Philly did, but his lack of defensive skills prevent this contract from being anything close to a steal.

    I think I already did enough to prove Hamrlik is more accomplished and more skilled than Kubina. You can go back and read the stats again if you disagree. Hamrlik likely was a "top 4" defenseman in Calgary, but look at Calgary's defense. The stats clearly show that he is a very capable top pairing defenseman. Kubina's do not. Would it be that much of a stretch to think that the Toronto Sports Network is slightly overvaluing Kubina?

    JFJ's decisions have thus far shown that he could be grouped among the worst in the league. If his moves this season work out, he might elevate himself to the status of average GM. It really doesn't matter when Gainey built that Stanley Cup winner in Dallas, he did it and he is a proven winner. He has enjoyed great success at every level in the NHL. If Gainey does let Souray walk, it is because he doesn't want to be burdened with a huge contract for a defensive liability like JFJ with McCabe. He HAS been actively making this team better. He has addressed Montreal's weaknesses and significantly improved those areas. Yes it was at the expense of their top of the NHL power play, but as shown by last season, you can't win in the NHL with just an excellent power play. He sacrificed a position of strength, he lost Souray, but he significantly improved a position of weakness by acquiring Hamrlik. They should still have a decent power play, obviously not top 2 in the NHL, but losing Souray isn't going to instantly drop them to the bottom of the league. Whereas adding Hamrlik and Smolinski will significantly improve their even strength play, and likely their penalty killing. Gainey has improved his team, as has JFJ. But based on track record, there is no comparison, Gainey is miles ahead of JFJ. Hell, JFJ took a perennial playoff team and missed the playoffs in back to back years.

  10. habs_punk says:

    There goes that lack of reading ability again.
    I didn't deny there is a significant link between goaltending and +/-, I merely stated that the supposed superstar defenseman Dion Phaneuf (who I believe was Hamrlik's defense partner) was only +12 playing in front of the same goalie as Hamrlik who was +22. Yes goaltending does impact +/-, but there can be huge discrepancies from one player to another playing in front of the same goalie. So obviously this isn't a stat solely based on the goalie, there is a significant portion of it that needs to be attributed to the player himself. That's why I think it is best to look at a player's +/- in relation to the other players on his team. Hamrlik had the third best +/- on his team, he is a very, very solid defensive presence.

  11. habs_punk says:

    Right now Carbs is not better than Maurice. But since you like to put words in my mouth there doesn't seem to be much point in me arguing with you on this. And continuing with those condescending comments like "that's cute", only makes you look bad. God, I can see why parents hate the summer holidays, you high school kids have entirely too much time on your hands.

    Maurice is the sole reason the Leafs came so close to the playoffs. If they had have made the playoffs, he may have had a coach of the year nomination. I like the Leafs coach, he does an excellent job. As for Carbs, I've already stated my opinion on him, which you must have conveniently ignored. He will be an excellent coach. It would be a major mistake for Bob to fire him. He made a lot of rookie mistakes this past season, and I'm sure he learned a lot. He will be a much better coach this year, and in the years to come, he will establish himself as one of the top coaches in the league. I know you're going to disagree with me on that, but at this point it's only opinion, and you've got nothing to back that up. Right now his lack of experience is the only problem. He is a very, very smart hockey man, he knows the game better than most. Just think of what would happen if Bob fired him and Carbs went on to have success in another market like Therrien, Julien, and Vigneault.

    The hypocrisy surfaces again. Toskala was a good move because it addressed Toronto's needs, but Hamrlik was a poor move because… why? Hamrlik very much addresses Montreal's needs.

    How Raycroft responds to this situation will dictate how he does. If he reacts as you think, and tries to prove himself again, the Leafs will have a solid tandem on their hands. I, however, don't think that will be the case. After JFJ and Maurice gave him a vote of confidence, then acquired a new goalie, his confidence is likely at an all-time low. That's what happened to Aebischer after Halak was given the starting job in Montreal. Not to mention the fact that he didn't deal with competition all that well in Boston before getting traded to Toronto.

    As for Pogge being better than Rask, as of right now, that is a major stretch. It seems the only people not expecting Rask to be a superstar are the Leaf fans because they don't want to think about what JFJ gave away. Rask was named the best goalie of the World Juniors ahead of Pogge despite Canada winning gold. Pogge's numbers in the AHL were far from impressive, while Rask's numbers in the Finnish league were extremely impressive. Maybe Rask won't be a superstar, but as of right it now looks like he will be much better than Pogge.

  12. the_word says:

    Settle down spazz, Simple Plan works on many level, nerd french punks who like the habs and suck etc….   but you can spare me the etymology of your screen name, I don't really care.

    Its funny, I'm finishing a Master's degree, yet you keep suggesting I don't know how to read.  I don't know how I get by, I must be very charming. 

    Look at McCabe's number spazz, I don't care what the guys you shower with think of his contract.

    Kubina is a proven defenseman, was a #1 defenseman on a cup winning team, plays well on both ends of the ice and has one of the best shot in the NHL, the reason he was such a bad signing for the Leafs is that his role was already filled by McCabe.

    Its doesn't matter that Gainey built a cup winner years ago, just like it doesn't matter that Keenan won a Cup in 94 he's still a shitty coach, he's still accountable for doing nothing since, so to is Gainey.

    Hamrlik and Smolinski are mediocre talents, thats what Gainey gave up the Habs biggest strength for.  Montreal will be worst this year.

    It took a lockout and complete restructuring of the NHL economics to get the Leafs out of the playoffs.  Its a pathetic oversimplification to simply say JFJ took a perennial playoff team and missed the playoffs, of course I shouldn't be surprised to read such a short sighted self serving argument from you.

    JFJ has made two questionable signing with McCabe (I'm be forgiving to your thin arguments here) and Kubina (not defending this one, but its not as bad as Hamrlik) and many good signing (Kaberele, Sundin, Tucker, Blake, Peca, Coliacovo, Antropov, Ponikarussian to name a few).  At least JFJ reminds his fans that he has redeeming qualities from time to time, Gainey is a joke.

  13. habs_punk says:

    Not being from Montreal or Quebec or even French, nor a Simple Plan fan, that comment actually doesn't work on any levels. And if you really don't care about the etymology of my screen name, you really need to stop making comments about it.

    If you really are working on your Master's, maybe you should put some of that knowledge to use while you read. I guess maybe "reading" wasn't the proper term to use, "comprehension" might be more accurate. If you are going to debate topics like this with me, don't be taking what I say out of context or putting words in my mouth. It really takes away from your overall arguments.

    And of course the obligatory gay comment, wasn't sure when that was going to show up. To be honest, I thought you were going to use that a long time ago. There was a moment when I thought you might be above stooping to that level, guess I was wrong.

    Smolinski is a mediocre talent, yes. He wasn't brought in to be the team's leading scorer. He was brought in to help stabilize Montreal's atrocious even strength play, and that is something he should excel at. Hamrlik may not be one of the top d-men in the league, but I've already proven that he is better than Kubina who, as you said, was the number one d-man on a Cup winning team. Hamrlik was an excellent signing. The price was a bit steep, but after the Timmonen signing, prices have gone up. Gainey has improved Montreal greatly from a defensive standpoint.

    If you want to insist that Hamrlik sucks, fine, that's your right to do so, I'm just saying that you're wrong.

  14. the_word says:

    ***** you're lame, its not hypocrisy, its so stereotypical that you'd resort to this accusation, its typical of geek narcissists who take this message boards way to seriously. Toskala is a cheap solution, Hamrlik is an overpaid bandaid for the impending loss of Sourey. They're very much different situations, its fine you refuse to acknowledge this, just spin however you feel you have too.

    Rask is nothing more than a goaltending prospect, prospects are never a sure thing, especially in goal (was there any real buzz about Halak before this season for example?) there is a good chance neither Rask, Pogge or Price turn into quality NHL goaltenders.

    I never ignored your opinion on Carbs, I know you like to jump to conclusions.  I simply pointed to the fact that this is another example of JFJ making a better decision that Gainey.  He even had Maurice waiting in the wings for an entire season, shows he's capable of long term thinking.  He may be a smart hockey person, but he obviously sucks at dealing with people and that spells disaster when his job is to manage talent. Paul has a personality, that is very important in coaching.

    In what will no doubt turn into a vain attempt to bring the focus of this discussion back on topic, I've listed a number of examples of JFJ making good decisions, all you seem to want to do is reduce JFJ to the signing of McCabe, Kubina and trading for Raycorft.  Its obvious that you have no interest in any actual debate, so I'm happy to simply mock you and your love for Simple Plan.

  15. the_word says:

    Write something interesting rather than long winded pro Habs BS and maybe you'll keep my attention.  I give up, Hamrlik is the best signing in the history of the NHL, his mediocre offensive output alone makes him worth 7 million a season.  This contract will be the envy of fans of all other teams for years to come.  I just hope I can get tickets to the 08 allstar game so I can get the chance to see him redefine greatness on a stage fill with his lesser peers.

  16. the_word says:

    Keep calling me illiterate, thats great argument, ignore all of JFJ strengths and Gainey's shortcoming, go to any lengths to manufacture superficial self serving arguments in praise of a lesser team in the Habs while talking down me.  Oh and everything I say literally, because that a sign of a sophisticated reader.   I also enjoy how you read whatever you want to into my posts.

    Actually I'm surprised, as a Habs fans I didn't think the ability to read would be all that important to you.

    You're being gay, its obligatory to call you on it.  I hate you southern Ontario dandies who confuse being PC with being sophisticated.

    Before you write another 700 tired words, ask yourself is Hamrlik better than McCabe (the answer is no), is he better than Kubina (again the answer is no, especially when Kubina is a better buy) and is Smolinski a relevant signing (again the answer is no, he's just filler).

    Hamrlik may not suck, but he's not an elite talent or star, he's just ok, but at 5.5 a year his among the worst contracts in the NHL.

    One defenseman doesn't fix Montreal's even strength woes, especially when that defenseman  is Roman Hamrlik.  Seeing how this crippled Montreal's PP, its not an improvement.  Without Sourey, Markov will suffer too, just as Kaberele would without McCabe. 

  17. habs_punk says:

    Wow. That was one of those "banging my head on the keyboard" posts. If you are tiring of my comments about your lack of ability to comprehend what you read, then maybe you should take a second and actually *****ing read what I say. Every comment you make, every negative thing you say about about my posts are the result of your own twisted interpretation of what I actually said.

    The constant cheap shots your throwing at me are more humorous than offensive. You lack the ability to maintain an intelligent debate with me, and so you throw out random insults that could be heard any day on an elementary school playground. Using the "I'm surprised you're intelligent because you're a *insert team name here* fan" insult makes you appear completely idiotic, are you actually serious about being a Master's student?!?

    I also never made an implication that you were unsophisticated because of your lack of political correctness. I do think it shows you to be homophobic and quite the bigot. Not to mention, again, the fact that a supposed Master's student is stooping to the playground level of calling other people gay calls into question the credibility of such a claim. Everything you write sets you at the intellectual level of a grade 11 or 12 at best.

    Seeing as you don't know a thing about me, have never met me, don't know what I look like, don't even know my name, the fact that you insist I'm gay means absolutely nothing to me. It shows you to be a moron, but that's about it.

    Now, jackass, if we're done with the laughable personal insults, let's try to keep this focused on hockey.

    Is Hamrlik better than McCabe? They are two completely different players. McCabe is far better offensively, while Hamrlik is far better defensively. A fair comparison can't really be made.

    Is Hamrlik better than Kubina? You have brought this up a few times, and each time, I direct you to the stats I provided. The stats are HEAVILY on Hamrlik's side. It isn't even close. Hamrlik is by FAR better than Kubina. Should I post these stats again? Are you unable to go back and have a look for yourself? Fine, here they are one more time:
    -Both have played for very poor defensive teams in the past.
    -Hamrlik is a career -71 in 999 games
    -Kubina is a career -91 in only 592 games
    -Hamrlik has a career 0.51 points per game
    -Kubina has a career 0.39 points per game
    Last 5 years
    -Hamrlik is +60
    -Kubina is -25
    -Hamrlik has 171 points in 350 games for 0.49 points per game
    -Kubina has 150 points in 375 games for 0.40 points per game
    Last season
    -Hamrlik had 7 goals and 31 assists for 38 points and a +22 rating in 75 games.
    -Kubina had 7 goals and 14 assists for 21 points and a +7 rating in 61 games

    You are clearly showing yourself to be the very thing you profess to hate. You don't like people that discount any moves JFJ makes only because it's the Leafs, yet you're ripping the Hamrlik signing only because it's Montreal

    Take off the blue and white glasses that you see everything in the world through for just a second, and actually take a look at what Montreal's flaws were last year. They were quite simply one of the worst even strength teams in the entire NHL. Yes Souray helped the power play a great deal, but when it comes to even strength, Souray was the epitome of Montreal's problems. At -28, Souray had the third worst +/- rating in the entire NHL, and the worst among defensemen. Hamrlik on the other hand was 26th best in the entire NHL, and 12th among defensemen. Hamrlik may not be an elite defenseman, but he instantly makes Montreal a much better team at even strength.

    Smolinski is an upgrade over Bonk, and figures to give Montreal a better third line. He should help out a lot at even strength, much like Johnson did last year (hope they manage to bring him back as well).

    One defenseman can't fix Montreal's even strength woes, that's right. But the subtraction of Souray combined with the addition of Hamrlik can go a very, very long way towards that goal. Besides, I would hardly call Montreal's power play crippled. Yes Souray was the main cog, but losing him won't instantly send Montreal's power play from top 2 in the league to the very bottom. They will still have a very respectable power play, probably in the range of 10-15th in the league.

  18. habs_punk says:

    At least my "pro Habs BS" as you put it, is largely based on stats, as opposed to your anti Habs BS, which is based on… well, BS. The complete idiocy of your post here basically sums up the absolutely moronic comments you've been making in this thread up to this point. Just get a *****ing life already, this is getting tiresome.

  19. habs_punk says:

    You continuously throw out completely un-hockey related comments and insults in nearly every single post you've made in this "debate", and yet I'm the one that has no interest in actual debate.

    In ignoring your comments about the positive moves that JFJ has made, I've done nothing worse than you're continual non-verbal dismissal of the actual stats I presented showing how much better Hamrlik is than Kubina.

    Sure there's never a sure thing when it comes to prospects. I mean there was always a chance Crosby and Ovechkin were going to be busts. To say that there is a good chance none of Rask, Pogge, or Price will turn into quality goaltenders is just a completely asinine statement. There's a chance, yes, but definitely not a "good chance". All the experts generally agree that they will all be quality goaltenders. After this past season, they are definitely more high on Rask and Price, but they aren't discounting Pogge's potential yet.

    You obviously know nothing about the Habs. Stick to your own team, criticize and praise them how you want to. If you were objective enough to look at some stats, then maybe I would give your arguments some credence. As it is, you're just spewing bullshit all over the place with absolutely nothing to back it up.

  20. the_word says:

    Oh, another sad little cyber geek on this board. Saying you're acting gay (notice I didn't actually call you gay, you should have realized that being the intellectual that you are) makes me a homophobe and you're not PC? Thats a stretch. For the record, I don't actually think you're a homosexual, not that it matters anyway (but you seem to want to make it real clear you're not gay, which ironically, is a more genuine example of homophobia). If you're going to lecture me on my inability to read, I suggest you stop taking everything written here so literally. I supposed if I had called you a loser, you'd have responded to me by listing all of the people you've hung out with in your life. I don't care, you must keep in mind that I'm not actually interested in your life.  Nor do I pretend to know you.

    "Everything you write sets you at the intellectual level of a grade 11 or 12 at best."

    Like you could tell the difference, I actually get paid to make these evaluations on undergrads. Keep the cheap shots coming though while you call me on my supposed hypocrisy.

    I come to this site as something to entertain myself with in the back round at work and the odd time I check my email. I don't define myself by the little distractions in my work day.

    Again you give your supposed insightful debate little credibility with discourse such as this…

    "Take off the blue and white glasses that you see everything in the world through for just a second, and actually take a look at what Montreal's flaws were last year."

    I'm hardly a homer, I hate the Kubina deal and the Raycorft deal. Like all other Leafs fans on this board, I hold no illusions that the Leafs are contenders. But let's keep focus, I'm comparing JFJ recent history to that of Bob Gainey's.

    I'm ripping the Hamrlik signing because its a bad deal, like I said if JFJ signed that contract, people would never forgive him for it, they've called for his head, for better deals (i.e. McCabe). Oh and seeing how McCabe and Hamrlik make pretty much the same money while both will be top pairing defensemen on their teams, yes its completely fair to compare them (although if I was trying to defend Hamrlik, I wouldn't want to either).

    +/- is an overrated stat, its more a function of team play than individual performance. To give elite money to a defenseman based on his +/-, when he was on the second defensive unit (Hamrlik wasn't matched up against teams top lines like Phneauf) is careless spending of cap room.

    Again there is a huge difference between a number two PP unit (impressive) and a 10-15th (mediocre), this will be a big issue for the Habs. A team losing its greatest strength is an issue that shouldn't be marginalized. Hamrlik is simply not enough of a difference 5 on 5 to justify losing Sourey.

    Looking over Kubina's numbers, he still has over 400 games to prove his metal if we're going to compare +/-, if you ever bothered to look at Hamrlik's stats, his +/- was horrid early in his career. Again you must keep in mind +/- isn't that important of a stat, as it fluctuates greatly for all players from year to year, there are many factors that play into it outside of individual performance. Kubina's game is less about point production as it is scoring goals, he also had to earn his ice time on the PP, Hamrlik who was a first round pick of Tampa, was handed the role of PP quaterback in his rookie year, Hamrlik played on a much better team last year than Kubina and Kubina had a disappointing year by his standards. I'll grant you that you can make a case for Hamrlik being better than Kubina, I don't think that is the case, ask around and I'm sure opinion would be split, in which case I defer the 'experts' of tsn.ca and their evaluation, they hold Kubina in higher esteem (how did you reject this again? Oh yeah, you said something along the lines of … could it be the experts were just wrong and that you're right, again shallow self serving analysis, your calling card).

    You keep throwing the token 'elementary school discourse, get out of high school and learn to read' lines, that are just so cliche on message boards. You've haven't proven shit, you have risen above anyone, your discourse is no better than theirs or mine, its merely a vain and unoriginal attempt to set up a dichotomy and then establish yourself as superior, to avoid any accountability. For instance, your cheap shots are ok, but when I do it, its childish.

  21. the_word says:

    Yeah, I wish I could be cool and level head like yourself.  I can't seem to shake this vision of you foaming at the mouth as you respond to everything I post with at minimum 500 words.  Think Hamrlik will let you borrow the car he wins at the 08 allstar game?

  22. goleafsgo1231 says:

    Tucker has played center before in his career so technically all three players on line 2 have been centers at some point in their career none of which have played center this past season.  Therefore, putting either one down the middle wouldn't make much of a difference.

    As for the first line, Sundin isn't a winger anymore (at least he hasn't played the position in a while) so I'm not sure why you say that the first line has three wingers on it. Then you go on to say that Wellwood is natural down the middle? yet you consider him a winger.

    As for Bataglia for all we know hes going to be the 13th forward, replacing injured players so he doesn't necessarily belong on the starting lineup.

    Wellwood has to play with either Sundin or Tucker hes proven that he can play well with these guys.  Why fix something that isn't broken.  At one point in the season he was leading the team in points and i believe hes only going to get better if he doesn't get the ice time and isn't able to play with the leafs top players then something is wrong.

    If you want to give Wellwood a position down the middle, do so on the top line with Sundin and Blake as his wingers. We all know Blake and Sundin can finish and we sure as hell know that Wellwood can dish the puck sounds like a good idea to throw him in the middle so that he can fee both players.

  23. the_word says:

    "In ignoring your comments about the positive moves that JFJ"
    I, at the very least address you're points, you outright ignore the majority of mine. There is no debate here because you refuse to fully acknowledge my position.

    Goaltending prospects are the least predictable. Its not the same as a forward or a defenseman. Its ridiculous to pretend that this is not the case. I'll be surprised if two of the three (Rask, Pogge and Price) become steady NHL goaltenders, let alone become number one goaltenders.

    It doesn't matter what I say, you'll spin it to suit your end or when failing to do so you'll simply ignore any valid points I make. Enjoy Warp Tour this summer year kid.

  24. habs_punk says:

    Well, I'm not responding to personal attacks any more, so that negates about half of your post.

    I'm not going to repeat my arguments, again, as it seems you want me to do with every post you make. Let me know when you come up with something you haven't said before, that I haven't already responded to, and maybe I'll come back to this argument. But as it is, I've already read what you just wrote about 10 times in different places during this discussion. There's nothing new here. We've talked about the McCabe and Hamrlik comparisons, you've didn't even respond to WHY I said it was a poor comparison.

    What the hell, I'll humor you with some quick responses:
    -If JFJ had have signed the Hamrlik deal, they would be calling for his head, because he already has 3 highly paid defensemen. Leaf fans want scoring, not more defense.
    -If Montreal were to drop to 10-15th in power play, yet move from bottom five in the league up to 10-15th at even strength, I think it's a good trade-off, not to mention their penalty killing should also improve significantly.
    -Sure Kubina has over 400 games to prove his metal, but that's a good 5 seasons away. Maybe by then Kubina will be better defensively and he'll be as good overall as Hamrlik is now. As of right now, Hamrlik is far superior. And if you had bothered to look at his stats, you would see that he was +21 on an Islanders team that was one game above .500. My "rejection" of the expert analysis on these players was very legitimate. TSN is very Leaf biased and do tend to, rather frequently, overvalue Leaf players. The fact of the matter is, right now Hamrlik is better than Kubina offensively and defensively. I proved it with stats, you argue the stats with one written line that could have been written by anybody.

  25. habs_punk says:

    Are you serious? You've got things a tiny bit backwards here. I have largely addressed your points ('your' not 'you're', that would be an embarrassing mistake for a Master's student), and you're the one ignoring mine the majority of the time. It was a good 5 or 6 posts after I posted the stats that prove Hamrlik is better than Kubina before you even acknowledged them.

    Oh, and again you feel the need to revert to the condescending use of the word "kid". We've been over this, you want me to stop calling you a high school student, yet you insist on pretending you're older than me by calling me "kid". Fine, whatever, if it makes you feel good about yourself, if that's the only thing keeping you happy, go ahead and keep pretending. It really only makes you look like a jackass, it makes you look a little stupid too, but mostly it makes you look like a jackass.

  26. habs_punk says:

    Think Sundin will let you wear his Stanley Cup ring when he wins it?

    Oh, and you might want to get checked out by a doctor if you're seeing things like that. It could be something serious.

  27. the_word says:

    Again, I'm not making the case that the Leafs are a contender, thats your misinterpretation.  You're the one attempting to make the case that Hamrlik is a good signing.  You see although Sundin makes the same money, he'll make the allstar game and McCabe has an honest shot at it too.  Can't say that about Hamrlik.

  28. sikboy21 says:

    As for Bataglia for all we know hes going to be the 13th forward, replacing injured players so he doesn't necessarily belong on the starting lineup.

    And Belak then?  The Leafs can't just add anymore – they've got a full roster.

  29. the_word says:

    Not responding to my personal attacks (you're lying, you will), pussie.   Feel free to keep yours coming though.

    I don't have to apologize for repeating myself, my arguments are consistent, if you're tired of responding to them, take the time to discuss many of my points that you have chosen to ignore.

    You weren't satisfied with how I responded to your argument for Hamrlik over Kubina. So I responded in detail.

    We didn't discuss the McCabe Hamrlik comparison, you said its unfair to compare two defensemen making pretty much the same money who are play on their team's top pairing unit. You tried to omit yet another valid comparison, its another example of you being selective in what can be discussed to suit your argument.

    Nope, lets say last season JFJ gave 5.5 a year to Hamrlik, it'd look worse than Kubina.

    Hamrlik is not greatly superior, I gave Kubina 400 games to catch u on the +/- which is a bs stat anyway, but 400 games makes a huge difference (how would Hamrlik look without his +/- numbers from Calgary?).

    TSN rated Kubina while he was playing with Tampa, so your accusation of being Leafs bias is not only purely a fabricated but irrelevant. Kubina plays much more physically than Hamrlik who is kinda soft. If you have so much faith in statistics, then McCabe is an elite defenseman, so I don't think your proof is sound.

    Montreal won't move out of the bottom five in even strength as a result of Hamrlik's arrival, that will only happen with greater commitment to team defense from the whole team and the return of Huet. Their PP will suffer greatly based as a result of the loss of Sourey though.

  30. the_word says:

    "your' not 'you're'"  Your posts are becoming increasingly petty. I'm not handing these posts in for review now am I, so I'll decide when I should be embarrassed.  You seem offended by the fact I'm working on a post graduate degree, I'm flattered.  I've already discussed the statistics you've posted.  Even if I hadn't, it doesn't change the fact you've been quite selective in your attempt to narrowly reduce my position.

    Call me whatever you want, I can take it, you seem a little edgy, son.  You're taking this a little too seriously and keep repeating the shallow message board cliches, its all been done before.

  31. habs_punk says:

    It's the same bullshit every single post. Tell me, which arguments have I chosen to ignore.

    If you're so hung up on winning every single argument, that you are unable to concede that you have no arguments, then fine, go ahead and repeat the same arguments that I have refuted, over and over and over. This entire argument has been a complete waste of my time. It's like arguing with a six year old who just keeps saying "I know you are, but what am I?". You've got no valid points that I haven't already refuted, all you've got are personal shots at me, who you know nothing about. If stats and logical reasoning can't persuade you, nothing will, so I give up. Maybe you enjoy writing the same thing over and over again, but it's getting monotonous and boring to me. Go watch your Leafs TV and dream about the day Sundin hoists the Stanley Cup over his head.

    Oh, and if you want to argue some more with someone about why JFJ has done such a poor job with the Leafs, go to the article about Toskala's extension. There's an actual Leaf fan on there with a list of mistakes he's made, including the Antro and Poni contracts you seem to think were genius.

  32. habs_punk says:

    Offended? Not a chance. Laughing to myself about the chances that you actually are working on a post graduate degree? Damn straight.

    Your claims that you're working on your Masters have just as much credibility as me claiming to have a PhD and be teaching in the psychology department at Queens. Neither has any credibility whatsoever. I could say I am anyone, working anywhere, with any kind of degree, and it doesn't necessarily make it true. Quite frankly, I don't believe a word of what you said about working on your Masters, so how could it possibly offend me? Call me son all you want, it isn't going to miraculously make you older than me, kid.

    So, with that, I am out of here, this has been the hugest waste of time ever. I have spent entirely too much time arguing with you, and getting nowhere, learning nothing in the process. You're a bore. Good luck with that imaginary degree. Maybe you can get your mom to put a gold star on it when you're finished.

  33. the_word says:

    Oh and I'm talking to myself huh.  I'm sick of your double standards.  Its embarrassing.  You've completely fallen apart, reduced to pathetic hyperbole.  This not an argument when you refuse to adequately recognize my position.  You seem more interested in correcting my syntax than talking hockey, I've gone out of my way to respond to everything you post, because otherwise you get pissy and over dramatic.

    You've ignored all of JFJ good signings which I've listed, superficially omitted expert analysis on imaginary biases, not even allow valid comparisons, exaggerated the merits of +/-,  accuse me of being repetitive for repeating the truth, falsely accuse me of hypocrisy because your too stupid to see the difference between the Leafs getting Toskala and Montreal overpaying Hamrlik (while criticizing JFJ for overpaying McCabe).  Yet I'm childish, you're mature, huh.

    "Oh, and if you want to argue some more with someone about why JFJ has done such a poor job with the Leafs, go to the article about Toskala's extension. There's an actual Leaf fan on there with a list of mistakes he's made, including the Antro and Poni contracts you seem to think were genius.

    Go to the Montreal boards, Bob's getting killed.  Rightly so.  I've been critical about JFJ, I don't think he's a great GM, but he is a hell of a lot better than Gainey though.  Its retarded to think all of my opinions are interchangeable with other Leafs fans.  On this site, Leafs fans opinions differ greatly, its an over simplification to suggest otherwise, so I'm not going to defend what other Leafs fans say, nor should I be expected too.

  34. the_word says:

    Thats cute, my imaginary degree.  Tap out, like what you write is so robust.  Enjoy letting Pierre junk in the back of your throat at Warp Tour puck rocker.

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