Could the Leafs trade Franson?

There has been speculation Franson’s rights might be dealt sooner than later with a number of interested suitors should the two-way defenceman be put on the market. But Carlyle and Franson hit it off after previous coach Ron Wilson could not find the right fit for the hard-shooting defender.

Ranger, who madfe strides with the Marlies last season after a couple of years out of the game for personal reasons, will need a strong camp to stick.

Nonis will know a bit more about his bank balance after arbitrator Fred Horowitz hears Fraser’s case in Toronto, barring a last-minute agreement between Loiselle and Fraser’s agent, Larry Kelly. There had been no contact between the sides up to Monday, but that doesn’t mean a late-night or early Tuesday phone call from either side won’t lead to a cancelling of the hearing and striking a deal.

Fraser is asking $2 million after his best NHL year, ending with a gruesome skull injury in the playoffs. The Leafs’ submitted brief offers of a slight raise to $855,000. Horowitz can decide on a one-year contract anywhere between those figures. He must announce it no later than 48 hours after the hearing.

If Fraser ends up with something above $1 million, but much lower than his requested figure, the Leafs will live with that and work him in. Under the new CBA, teams have no right to ‘walk away’ from an arbitrator’s decision on salaries up to or above $3.5 million.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/07/29/maple-leafs-fraser-set-for-arbitration-hearing


116 Responses to Could the Leafs trade Franson?

  1. reinjosh says:

    Brodie resigned with the Flames for two years in a nice briddge cotnract. Good deal for the Flames. But more interestingly I think this (along with a few other deals) may signal the return of the “bridge contract” to the NHL.

    With the hard cap on years for players resulting in higher salaries for the stars (and as a sidenote, guys like Giroux, and soon to be Kessel, getting 8 million is not going to be unnormal going forward. Proven stars will get their money), I suspect teams will play hardball with their RFA’s.

    If teams are being forced to pay full price for their stars (since they can’t artificially lower cap hits with longer term anymore) they aren’t going to want to risk spending bigger money on players who only have potential at this point. Hence the return of bridge contracts. Teams will be less willing to risk a player not living up to their potential and I suspect would rather just pay for the proven player than the potential player.

    I think this may be one of the issues with current RFA’s like Pietrangelo, Kadri, Hodgson, Burmistrov (probably a big reason he left), Boedker, Cowen and Stepan. Their agents likely told them they could get them a long term contract with good money but didn’t realize how the new CBA would change things.

    this may be a reason Kadri isn’t signed yet (and we could see a holdout like the Habs saw with Subban).

    Franson is a little different though. He’s already had three contracts in his career. And until this year he didn’t realy show his massive potential. Sure, at other points in his career he showed some potential but up until now he hasn’t shown the big potential.

    So I suspect that when all is said and done with Franson and Kadri, that Kadri will have a bridge contract, and Franson will have a deal in between a bridge contract and a long term contract.

    • leafs_wallace93 says:

      Good post, going forward I expect a lot of teams to get caught under those 8 million cap hits one way or the other. I’d rather Kessel and Phaneuf that can be pieces of a competitive team than over paying the would be press box stiffs line the 4-6 range (you know like what the Leafs have been doing for years now). How Leaf fans want to play hard ball with Kessel (best talent I’ve seen on the Leafs since Dougie) and Dion? Crosby isn’t coming, we’ll never tank so these guys should be no brainers.

      Teams playing hard ball with RFA should help the Leafs with their deep pockets, perhaps Nonis has the stone to offer sheet. Worst case scenario we get matched and cripple another franchise that is unable to spend to the cap.

      • DannyLeafs says:

        I agree. I think Kessel is a must sign, and I think we need to realize that defensmen better than Phaneuf don’t grow on trees as well.

        With Phaneuf, I am not a fan of giving him more then he is currently making, but I am hopeful that some of these recent comparables and teams seeming lack of willingness to overspend on UFA defensemen this year will get his price down.

        It’s been a strange year for defensemen. Almost every other offseason some defensemen gets overpaid massively during free agent frenzy and becomes an albatross contract, but this year it seems teams were more timid. I mean the talent was at the same level it had been in the past, but usually that just drives teams to overbid for the guys that are available. I feel like guys like Ference, Scuderi, Rozsival, Zidlicky signed for pretty reasonable amounts seeing as there were plenty of teams in need of D. Also, the fact that a guy like Hainsey isn’t signed, and Bouwmeester and Bogosian signed for just over 5 million could set the market a little lower than it has been in the past.

  2. leafs_wallace93 says:

    Another concern is that the Leafs have no true budget talent, Fraser getting 1.25 highlights that pretty well every roster player and a few healthy scratches will be paid at least one million against the cap. McLaren being the one exception. Factor in that we’re playing Frattin, Tucker and Armstrong and if we trade Liles we’re likely to retain some salary…. becoming an issue.

    • The good news is nearly 3 million in retained/buyout salary comes off next year for the leafs.

      Holzer and Smith are still taking up cap space on the roster, so figure a little more than a million dropping off the cap giving the leafs a little more wiggle room.

      However, Riley’s full salary is not counting against the cap yet, providing his makes the team that nearly million comes back.

      Simple put, somebody has to go. Liles needs to be traded for a late pick, and most likely some salary will be retained, which gives you a worst case scenario of getting rid of 2+ million on that deal. That still leaves plenty to sign Kadri, Franson, and call up Riley if needed.

      I’d be more concerned with next year to be honest. It’s a big year for the leafs with contracts. If Reimer stays #1, and if kulemin comes up big, things may interesting.

  3. leafy says:

    I’m confident the Leafs will resign Franson. And if either Franson or Kadri is traded, it would have to be some spectacular offer (ie, a hockey move).

  4. Gambo says:

    Just curious, say Toronto could only have one of either Franson or Kadri, the other became trade bait. Who would you keep and who would you trade?

  5. nordiques100 says:

    Bouwmeester just extended w Blues for 5 yrs 5.4 mil per. That’s great news for the Leafs in their attempt to re-sign Phaneuf if they choose to keep him.

    We can be sure Dion won’t get more than what he’s making now and likely will get less. So now IMO 5.5-6 mil is a realistic possibility and a realistic number.

  6. Gambo says:

    Jaw Bouwmeester just signed a 5 year deal worth a cap hit of 5.4m

    I think that’s fair value, hopefully Phaneuf will resign for a similar deal. This just makes Phaneuf more of an attraction to other teams come July 1st if he isn’t resigned by then.

    • LN91 says:

      Bouwmeester is essentially Dion Phaneuf 2.0

      Anything over 5.5 million, like I’ve been saying for years now, is a complete overpayment for Phaneuf.

      I cannot see Phaneuf’s ego wanting a pay decrease, so he will be overpaid.

      • leafy says:

        A very valid point LN91.

        • Gambo says:

          How is Jay Bo a a Phaneuf 2.0? And again, why do you think he has such a big ego? It might be the most used criticism against him on this site, but no one’s ever given reasons why they think he’s so egotistic.

          I don’t disagree that Phaneuf should be paid around 5.5m, but i don’t think 5.5-6m is a “complete overpayment”.

          • realistic_leafs_fan says:

            The problem is we have no contracts for good to great value.
            Last year, Kadri, Gunnar, Franson, Reimer, Kessel, Frattin, Komarov, Fraser, Bozak, McClement and McLaren were all good to great value. Now, most are either overpaid or slightly overpaid or just OK value.
            Good to great teams have players who over-perform compared to their contract. We have added Clarkson and Bernier who both will likely be overpaid especially if Reimer remains #1.
            That’s why I have been saying we need to trade some guys and get back players who are either fairly paid or even underpaid a bit. Then you can overpay a bit for a Kessel for example, but you can’t overpay everyone…it just doesn’t add up to success. With Kessel likely to be paid very well to overpaid, Clarkson overpaid, Gunnar, Bozak, Bernier, Liles, Fraser as well on the overpaid side(possibly add Franson in their)…can the Leafs afford to overpay Dion as well?
            At some point we need to have good contracts. Hopefully Kadri, Reimer and Gardiner will be good contracts, but our spending history says they will be overpaid.
            When I suggest trading Dion, it is because he makes the most sense based on return and probable contract demands. I have always said if he will sign at $5.5 or lower, I am all for keeping him, but I don’t think we can afford him at $6.5 and up. Better to have (2) #2-4 D-men $7mil or less than 1 Dion at that price.IMO

            • Gambo says:

              What you said makes sense and i agree. I just don’t see 6m to be an overpayment. But yeah if he wants more than 6.5 they should look into trading him, like you said.

              Nonis should really start the contract talks with him and Kessel so he will have time to figure out if he is going to sign or trade them, better to do it now before they become a pure rental.

              Good post.

              • realistic_leafs_fan says:

                Thanks,
                It is what I have been saying going back to the start of last season for the reason that we are starting to see. Dion will not get NHL ready return at the deadline this season, he will get back picks/prospects. We have those already, we need NHL talent.
                Everyone hated the Dion,Gunnar,Ryan for Smid,Petry,Moros/Pitlick, but I wasn’t basing it only on pure talent, it was also on preparing for the future.
                If Gardiner or Reilly become $5+mil talent…How can we have Dion $6.5+, Gardiner $5+ and Reilly $5+?
                Smid is great value at $3.5 and costs a little more than Gunnar but a better D-man, Petry is a good two-way and at $1.75 is a great value D-man who will likely command about $3 next year only. That is $6.5 for two guys, Franson at $3.5-$4 and we have tons of room to pay Gardiner around $4-$5 if needed and give Ranger a raise if he proves to still be a top 4 guy. All those D would be a minimum good value to very good value. The only reason we got out of the last mess was compliance buy-outs…they are gone, we don’t have any left.
                Bad teams overpay many…good teams overpay very few. Unless Dion will sign a good value deal…we need the cap room for Kessel, Gardiner etc. Smid, Petry, Gardiner, Franson, Ranger would have been a very solid, value priced D-core that has cap room to add good talent if needed. Phaneuf, Gunnar, Franson, Gardiner and Ranger does not look much better and has no cap room left and probably too much tied up on D.

                • Gambo says:

                  Lol i still hate your proposed trade with edmonton.

                  Toronto has a good amount of prospects who are defensemen. If we’re talking about the future we shouldn’t have to worry about cap issues for the back end. We’ll have players like Blacker, Granberg, Finn, Percy on really cheap deals.

          • LN91 says:

            How is Phaneuf better then Jay Bo? I don’t see any player being superior to the other.

            Jay Bo took a huge salary cut, he could’ve probably fetched alot on the market but left it all on the table for the team.

            Same with Clarkson, he was offered more money and turned it down.

            Let’s see what Phaneuf demands…I guarantee he’s looking for 6+ when 5.75 should be considered a stretch.

            • Gambo says:

              I’m not saying Phaneuf is better, i just don’t think Jay Bo is any better than him. Still doesn’t answer my question why you think Phaneuf has a big ego compared to other nhl players.

            • leafs_wallace93 says:

              Phaneuf has better numbers and a better physical game. I doubt any GM in the league besides the hick running Calgary would pick Jay over Dion.

              Let’s be honest you’d consider anything offered to Phaneuf an overpayment.

      • reinjosh says:

        bouwmeester is phaneuf 2.0 the same way kessel is ovechkin 2.0. meaning not at all.

        bouwmeester is phaneuf minus the snarl, the physical play, the shot, the consistent offense and the goals.
        the only similarities are size, high draft position, and salary.

        phaneuf gets too much hate by leaf fans. he’s going to join a long list of great players run out of town by the idiotic fans who are too blinded to see what they have.

        • nordiques100 says:

          Josh you will get utterly destroyed by one individual here, but i want to say you are not wrong.

        • LN91 says:

          Great players like whom?

          Kubina? McCabe? Kaberle? Hal Gill? Oh wait, how about Andy Wozniewski? Breden Bell?

          These are not ‘over the-top’ talent Josh..Maybe in your mediocre life it is, but they were never superior talent.

          Toronto has been WAY more affected by dealing picks and prospects then they would ever be from running out semi-superstar talent out of town.

          What is more detrimental to the Leafs? Running out McCabe or dealing Scott Niedermayer for Tom Kurvers (Leafy?)

          Or…I guess running out Kaberle was JUST as bad as dealing Couture for Toskala?

          • Gambo says:

            McCabe in his prime was a consistent 50+ point defenseman, with a high of 68 points in 73 games. That season he put up a .03 ppg less than Erik Karlsson did the year he won the Norris trophy and you think he’s the best player in the NHL. Oh and McCabe averaged over 100pims, a physical aspect that you’ll never see from players like Karlsson.

            Kaberle also averaged over 50 points during his prime with a high of 67. These were two great players in their prime.

            The only way some leafs fans will be happy is if they have 23 young, elite players all making less than 3 million a year.

            • leafs_wallace93 says:

              People forget that JFJ opted out of a Pronger for Kaberle and Steen trade with Edmonton. Kaberle being the center piece of that deal. Though JFJ did not make that trade because he wanted to ‘draw the line’ on trading young talent (you know because trading young talent for veterans would haunt the Leafs).

              Pronger was in his prime at the time coming off a cup appearence with the Oil. Holding on to that young talent later paid dividends in the form of Lee Stempniak! Young talent FTW always.

              The Leafs did get worse in the standings after McCabe left. I hated Kubina’s contract more so than McCabe’s, the Leafs would have been competitive with one and not the other.

              • nordiques100 says:

                Mccabe died b/c of Kubina. Why Maurice broke up arguably the best D tandem in the NHL at that time in McCabe/Kaberle is one of the biggest Leaf mysteries ever.

                • leafs_wallace93 says:

                  McCabe/Kaberle/Tucker was as good of a PP as the Leafs ever had and still there were vilified as a tumor against the cap.

                  If we had turned that 5 million waste on Kubina into a great piece in the top six forwards that would have been a competitive team IMO.

          • reinjosh says:

            Larry Murphy ring a bell?

            that’s exactly the type of hate phanweud receives and it’s beyond dumb. no dman in the league does as much as he does with such little defensive support.

            and couture was never traded by the leafs. in fact no pick traded by the leafs was used to pick couture. way to try and manipulate things though. not that I disagree with past GMs making stupid decisions with picks. but at least present things factually.

            but the point is leaf fans have this absolutely retarded self deprecation of their own players. you’d never know that sundin was such a star because half of leaf nation wanted to run him out of town. leaf nation is its own worst enemy. karri was a bust because he didn’t make the NHL right away but schenn was ruined because he played right away?

            its moronic. and your view of phanuef that you and others have is just another one of leaf nations idiotic ideas. its like they refuse to see any kind of plus on the team and just cannot see a leafs team that isn’t anything but shit.

  7. DannyLeafs says:

    Does anyone know if a retained salary deal has to be equal for all remaining years?

    For example if the Leafs wanted to trade Liles, could they offer to retain 1.875 million in year one, then say .875 in years 2 & 3?

    Just curious as I would imagine something like that would be more attractive to other teams, and given the Leafs would then have 6.9 million to sign Franson and Kadri without any demotions, they could easily afford to do that to make him more appealing to teams who have cap difficulty this year, but may not the year after.

    • “RETAINED SALARY TRANSACTIONS
      Teams can retain a percentage of a contract’s remaining cap hit, salary and bonuses in trades. The following stipulations apply:
      No more than 50 per cent of the salary/cap hit can be retained
      Salary/cap hit cannot be retained on more than three contracts in one season
      The aggregate cap hits retained cannot exceed 15 per cent of the upper limit
      A contract can be traded only twice where salary/cap hit is retained”

      I’m assuming it’s a % that follows every year. It’s not very clear, though.

  8. leafy says:

    The Leafs are gonna buy out Liles. You heard it here first.

    • $875,000
      $875,000
      $2,375,000
      $1,250,000
      $1,250,000
      $1,250,000

      Those are the buyout numbers. If they could retain 1.5, that’s still better than buying him out.

      • nordiques100 says:

        I think taking back 875K in the deal in each of the 3 seasons Liles contract has left is a good deal for Toronto. That 2.3 mil is going to bite them in the butt down the road for sure.

        Liles at 3 mil per for 3 years may have some value.

  9. reinjosh says:

    lots of talk of “good value” contracts or “budget talents”. the new CBA killed that and fans need to stop thinking in those terms. there is a new era in the NHL and its where talent gets paid. look no further than pavelski getting 6 million long term. in two years that’s going to be the norm. get used to it.

    • Bickell is another. Good value who just got over paid. (most likely)

    • DannyLeafs says:

      I don’t know that I agree that budget contracts are dead, but I do agree that you can’t build your team around them. Not because they aren’t important, but budget contracts that have been useful for teams come in four forms.

      1) ELC’s and RFA signings that outperform their contract after they are signed, (Kane, Toews, Crosby, Keith, Seabrook, Tavares, Stamkos and most other young stars who play big roles in their first 2 or 3 years)

      2) Players that were basically cast offs who get signed or traded for on the cheap who either establish themselves or revitalize their careers (Lupul, Sharp, Parenteau, Moulson, MacArthur, Souray)

      3) Players who take home town discounts because either A) they are late in their career and are comfortable but want to play another year (Selanne, Lidstrom) or B) Realize that they are in a good situation and they feel like they owe their success on that situation so take less to stay (Kunitz, Dupuis, Lupul, Bergeron)

      4) Players who were signed for fair market value at the time but who become good deals because either they continue to develop beyond the player they were when they signed the deal, or the cap increases making their contract a better deal as time goes on, or some combination of the two (Kane, Toews, Sedins, Burrows, Eriksson, Brown, Giroux, Tavares, Stamkos)

      In just about any case, it’s not that teams went and targeted players because they thought their cap hit would turn out to be a good value or budget talent, they just turned out that way.

      In the end scouting wins championships. Amateur scouting gets you the most out of your draft picks, and pro scouts help you trade for and sign the right players.

      Also, I am not as shocked that Pavelski got that amount. Given what players are getting lately, I think 6 million for a guy that can score 25-30 goals, 60-70 points, play all three forward positions, is excellent defensively, can play the point on the powerplay, own the faceoff circle, and raises his game in the playoffs, is a good investment. I mean if Milan Lucic gets 6 mil, I don’t see why it’s an overpayment for a guy like Pavelski.

      • realistic_leafs_fan says:

        No, you can’t build around “budget” or “good” contracts, but to say they are dead or not needed is ridiculous.

        We have high paid players in Kessel, Clarkson(overpaid) and Phaneuf. We have solid contracts in Lupul, JVR, Kulimen and Bolland.

        We have good contracts in Reimer, Colborne and Gardiner, which may not be the case in one more year. At the moment the Leafs have left little room for good contracts to make the team, which is usually young talent on a good price in their first couple seasons or guys that have just taken extra time to develop, so they have not had a good payday yet.

        All the recent Stanley Cup winners have guys making impacts on good contracts. They also do not tend to overpay on too many players even getting some to take hometown discounts if they are valuable enough. Toronto overpays guys that are not irreplaceable, which is stupid.
        Stanley Cup winners also trade guys or let them walk then overpaying guys that could be replaced. Versteeg, Bolland, Seguin, Brouwer, Campbell, Ladd, Bernier, Staal, Goligoski, Wheeler etc are pretty good players but moved to create cap room and fill other needs they felt more important.

        What does Toronto do? They give Gunnar and Bozak really good money to stay…and people like this. Comparables have been given in order to show the contracts are in line with other similar players. Difference is, on good teams, they already have the studs in place so that these players are in secondary roles. In Toronto, they will be first line and first pairing players…and fans are happy with this? Yes, many are because those players may have got more elsewhere or via UFA, so we got a deal so to speak. Did we improve the team by getting a true number 1 centre or number 1 pairing D? No, but they could have got more elsewhere so we win? Really, that’s winning?

        According to the new Arbitration rules noted on here in a post, Toronto couldn’t walk away from Gunnar’s awarded contract if under $3.5 mil which would have had a maximum 2 year term. So instead of taking a 1 or two year awarded term at no more than like $300,000 a year, we give him 3 years at almost maximum money. If Nonis had of let the Arbitrator award a contract…over $3.5 we could have walked away and under would have been about the same money or even Less than we gave him.
        He also could have used either scenario in his bargaining with Franson. Now, Franson is saying “you gave Gunnar $3.15 for 3 years, I deserve ???”
        “Good or value contracts” are needed more than ever if we want to contend. All the recent Cup champions have had those contracts in place when they won, yet some Leaf fans think we don’t need them…spend, spend, spend on mediocre talent is the new winning formula I guess. Can’t wait to see how that works out.

        • realistic_leafs_fan says:

          *Toronto overpays guys that ARE irreplaceable, which is stupid.

        • DannyLeafs says:

          I agree that teams need them, but you can’t force them. Teams get good contracts by paying fair market value for players they identify as necessary, and as the cap raises or that player grows in ability, you get a good deal.

          Gunnarsson and Bozak’s deal were fair, not based on the role they played with the Leafs, but fair based on their talent and ability. It’s funny you brought up the black hawks as an example of how teams should operate, however they really are a model of how the Leafs are operating. They paid to keep talent they felt they could use, and paid big dollars to attract free agents they felt they needed. The Leafs are still in a building stage, and I don’t think Nonis has mismanaged the cap at all. His biggest blunder in my opinion is the Komisarek situation, however I can’t really blame him based on the situation. He was stuck with several bad contracts, and how could you not guarantee Komisarek a buyout, he is a great team guy, class act, and deserved a fresh start. It is an oversight, but not the end all be all type of mistake.

          Other than that he has done exactly what we would want. He paid fair market value for pretty much every deal he has signed, and done a very good job of structuring those contracts in a way that gives a team with the Leafs financial clout more flexibility to move them later. Both Bozak and Clarkson have deals where if they are moved in the last 2 years after july 5th, they will cost the team taking them on less money then cap hit.

          We disagree on Gunnarsson and Bozak in terms of value, so no point in arguing it further. I think they are as good a players as you will get signed for that money, you don’t, I get that, but all in all even the most cynical can’t call either contract catastrophic overpayments, and certainly have the potential to be very reasonable as the cap increases. It simply comes down to liking Bozak much more then any of the options available, and in all honesty, of all the 2nd line center deals signed this off season, I would actually argue that Bozak’s was the best value (Little’s is pretty spot on too).

          The Clarkson deal has the potential to be the big misstep of the year, but it was a gamble worth making. I liked going hard after a player that is likely to give you at least some value, and is the kind of player thats extremely hard to get otherwise. Not a big fan of 7 years, but I like the contract more than I would like not having that type of player on the team.

          The Leafs still have the potential to have very good value contracts on the books for several years. Kessel is still going to be a great value for another year, Kadri has the potentail to be a great value for 2 more years as he will likely sign a bridge deal. We have a lot of 2nd tier forward talent in the system, hopefully making the bottom six of our line up both strong and affordable for several years, while allowing up to move assets and getting additional value. If Lupul plays at the same level he did the last two seasons, and stays healthy, his contract could be phenominal deal, and JVR could also be a great deal if he can actually continue on a 30 goal pace and be a big playoff performer as he did last year.

          Kulemin is the ideal third line winger so hopefully he will continue to be the type of contract we will want to keep. Throw in some potential surprises like Rielly, Granberg, and Ranger, and I think the Leafs have themselves set up to have a well managed cap for a lot of years to come. I am not so worried about Kessel’s deal being the one that kills us, if he stays with the Leafs I think just about any deal he signs for would likely be fair value. I don’t see him getting in the 8.5 range, and anything under 8 would be great.

          Phaneuf is where Nonis needs to be careful. I think he is a big part of our D, but in the long run to be really effective I would think our D will need another guy as good or better than Phaneuf, so I don’t think we could pay him an amount that makes him our default #1 for the next 5-6 years. I think Nonis needs to get him for an amount where if somebody surpasses him and makes him our secondary shutdown guy, and secondary PP weapon he still doesn’t have an albatross contract. I would like him to sign a deal similar to Bouwmeesters and Bogosians. That would be livable.

          Like I said, I don’t at all disagree that the Leafs would need to get better than average value from some players to win a cup, but I don’t think you can just say you do that by playing hardball with every UFA and RFA. I think the key is to keep prospects and picks, let them develop before making the NHL, and not handcuff yourself with contracts that are terrible value and you can’t move. I think Nonis has done that so far.

          • realistic_leafs_fan says:

            I didn’t mean or say play hardball with every RFA or UFA. I said identify those worth paying the money over those who play roles that could be replaced by cheaper or better.
            “I think the key is to keep prospects and picks, let them develop before making the NHL, and not handcuff yourself with contracts that are terrible value and you can’t move.” I totally agree with that statement, but some contracts have to be great value, not just fair value.

            • DannyLeafs says:

              Like I said, you get those deals by simply drafting well and paying guys fair values that don’t screw with your cap. Look at guys like Toews, Tavares, Stamkos, Kane, All of these guys have been considered fantastic value for their cap hits over the past couple of seasons and will be for at least a little longer. None of these deals was really considered a bargain when they signed them, it has more to do with signing fair deals and then the cap going up while the player stayed at the same level or improved. There are lots of contracts also that looked like over payments but considering the player, they look like smart deals looking back. Eric Staals deal was considered an albatross for several years, but his consistency and the increased cap make that deal livable. Mikko Koivu’s deal seemed a bit of an overpayment, but considering what good two-way centers capable of 70 points cost, there are plenty of teams that would take him in a heart beat. Same could be said of guys like Kopitar, Vanek, and even Zedeno Chara on the deal that brought him to Boston.

              I don’t think you can control which contracts become great value, I think you get them by great scouting, identifying real needs, and not signing too many deals that have a great chance to completely blow up in your face.

        • reinjosh says:

          all those teams won cups in the past CBA. things are going to change drastically. I’d bet heavily that budget contracts as we know them now, will be few and far between, the new cheap contracts will be elc’s and bridge contracts

          • realistic_leafs_fan says:

            I’m not sure how why you are drawing this conclusion Josh.
            This past season was under the new CBA where the Hawks won and traded Bolland and let Stalberg walk over paying him a good raise. Rozsival was brought back at $2.2 which is a value contract. They chose to keep Bickel and pay him over Bolland and Stalberg.
            This up-coming season has a reduced cap hit and teams are given 2 compliance buy-outs. Does that not show the importance of smart contracts?
            ELC’s and bridge contracts are already considered value or budget contracts if the player plays above that pay. The new CBA has changed nothing there. As the cap rises, so does the average pay per position and star’s pay will be higher as well. Maybe we pay a guy now $1.5 mil but he plays like a $2.5 mil guy…great contract. In three years, maybe that same quality of players pay average is $3mil but we are paying $2mil…still a great contract, how does the new CBA change that?
            Good value contracts are getting better value than what you pay, whether it be ELC, bridge, castoff, rfa over ufa…how will that change?
            Boston traded Seguin and Peverly costing $9mil per season for Eriksson and his $4.25 per year to make cap room for Rask and Bergeron. They will use a lower priced player in Peverly’s place and Eriksson costs less than Seguin. They made a choice, trade the former 2nd overall pick and his contract to keep Bergeron and Rask. Plus, Eriksson is considered a good value contract for what you get.
            The point is that Toronto is not doing anything like this. Instead we pay Bozak and Gunnar full value and put them in roles they are not suited. Yes, $4.2 for a first line centre and $3.15 for a first pairing D is on the low end, but would only be good contracts if they performed like a first line centre and first pairing D, which Bozak and Gunnar do not.
            Toronto is paying fair to above talent money to keep replaceable players and put them where they don’t belong. I don’t like the precedent set or where it is heading.
            Pitt is paying 3 forwards, 1 D and a goalie over $35 mil combined next season(personally I think that’s too much) which will be half the expected cap…I think it’s pretty safe to say that they are relying on some “value” contracts.

            • I think the basic point is you can’t get a player like loui under a good contract these days. He’s signed a big extension after his 3rd NHL season, and his first great season, back in Oct 2009. That was before he broke 70 points consistently for 3 years. Trading players for good contract wasn’t what Josh was talking about. It’s being able to sign your RFA’s, & UFA’s to good contracts.

              Bickell is a great example as you mentioned. He had a great contract, great value. They chose to keep him and over pay him. Is he considered a good value contract now? He would’ve gotten a good raise no matter what team he went to. Good value players are becoming few and far between. Unless they’re on an Entry level contract, or re-signed after playing a bottom role and eventually moved up to a 2/3 line, it’s hard to get good value contracts these days.

              • realistic_leafs_fan says:

                I think people are confusing having “good” value contracts on your team compared to the ability to sign good contracts. It has always been difficult to sign a player at good value if he has shown he can perform, nothing has changed there. The point I am making, is paying the right players the good money and that you can’t pay everyone on the team good money. Will Gunnar’s play exceed his salary? Will Bozak’s? Doubt it, I just hope they live up to their pay.
                The best chances are Kessel, Gardiner, Colborne, Ranger and Reimer to outplay their money. All need contracts at end of season, along with others. Sometimes you have to make a choice of who to pay and who to let go. Would Toronto be better off without Gunnar and/or Bozak against possibly losing a Kessel, Phaneuf, Gardiner, Reimer, Franson, Kadri, Bolland, Kulimen for example.
                Last year Gunnar and Bozak had a combined cap hit of $2.825mil…this year (and for three more years) the combined cap hit is $7.35 mil. That’s about $4.5 mil more for those two or the equivalent raises for Kessel and Gardiner or Phaneuf and Franson, or Kadri and Kessel most likely. Bozak has put up a career high 47 pts as a first line centre while being a huge minus player during that span. Would Kadri really put up less numbers in that role? Gunnar is a solid overall guy who plays 21 mins a night and is best suited for second pairing defensive minutes. Personally, I would rather have paid Franson that money. Apparently LA wanted Gunnar but settled for Fratiin. Maybe we could have gave Gunnar but got Martinez or Muzzin. So Gunnar, Scrivins and a 2nd for Bernier and Martinez/Muzzin who only make $1mil each. we would still have Frattin as well.

                • nordiques100 says:

                  Bozak is different in that he was a UFA.

                  probably in the open market he could have gotten closer to 5 if not over 5.

                  to bring him back at 4.2 is not horrible. like Grabo 5.5 mil horrible.

                  It balances itself out. Lupul signed for less than we really thought. If he is healthy, he is a stud.

                  Clarkson prob left money on the table. but as you say, Gunnarsson is a bit overpaid.

                  • realistic_leafs_fan says:

                    Bozak ranked 40th and 39th in centre icemen scoring the past two seasons while playing first line minutes and first team pp minutes. Kessel his main winger ranks 4th and 9th among right wingers those same years. Both years Bozak is outscored by our second line centre even though he plays with the best talent. We are giving him $4.2 mil because he can take faceoffs and put up poor points as a first line centre? If Kadri takes over first line duties and Bozak puts up 30 pts as a second line centre…is he going to be worth $4.2 mil? I don’t like how we are spending our cap money right now. I hope these players prove me wrong.

                    • nordiques100 says:

                      it was all about team chemistry, not necessarily about points and goals.

                      Bozak’s value is he is decent defensively, he wins draws and he works well with Phil.

                      I don’t like him either but he’s more valuable to this team at 4.2 than Grabo at 5.5.

                      Unfortunately Nonis could only clean up at one time 2 of Burke’s messes, not all of them without costing them cap space.

                      There’s been 4, Liles and Connolly included for which Nonis got away with dumping Connolly but is stuck with Liles.

                      I think Nonis has fared pretty well cleaning up that mess for what he had.

                    • Gambo says:

                      If you look at most of the top lines in the league, only two of the three players are usually putting up high numbers. It’s usually a center and a winger(Stamkos+St Louis, Sedin+Sedin, Ovechkin+ Backstrom, etc.)

                      In Toronto’s case it’s two wingers rather than a winger and center, and it’s working that way. Bozak is paid fairly, definitely not overpaid, same goes with Gunnarsson. It’s not always about stats, team chemistry goes a long way.

                    • realistic_leafs_fan says:

                      I understand it’s not all about stats, I am one who promotes size and toughness as a necessity, which doesn’t result in big stats. I still think the Bozak signing was not necessary. All this talk about keeping the chemistry. Did Boston suffer from chemistry when trading Thornton, Stuart, Wheeler and Kessel? Did Chicago suffer a chemistry breakdown when they traded Versteeg, Reasoner, Skill, Ladd, Campbell, Brouwer etc after their first cup? Kings traded Smyth, Schenn, Simmonds and Johnson to improve and win the Cup. Pens have traded Goligoski, Letestu, Michalek, Staal and Kennedy since winning the cup and are still considered Cup contenders. All these teams have also lost some good players via free agency, yet they didn’t fall apart due to lack of chemistry. Kessel would fall apart without Bozak? Really? Without Bozak, Kessel’s game will suffer? A better centre should make him better, just like it has for many players throughout the history of hockey. If the loss of one player, Bozak, kills chemistry on the Leafs, we are in big trouble.

                    • DannyLeafs says:

                      The problem is that there isn’t a centre in the league making less than Bozak on a deal signed as a UFA for more than next year.

                      Seriously not one. Like I said, I can see taking issue with Bozak not being good enough, but more money would have to be spent to improve. So he was reasonable value.

                    • realistic_leafs_fan says:

                      I understand that. I would have rather seen Kadri given a shot, move JVR to centre and sign a winger as they were available for Bozak money. Kadri, JVR and Bolland down the middle sounds just as good or better than Bozak, Kadri, Bolland and would have been the same cost. Trading for a winger is also easier than trading for a centre as we all know. Plus, we would have had Bozak’s cap space to take on salary in a trade.

                    • DannyLeafs says:

                      Like I said, thats where we differ. I see Bozak as a contributor, you see him as a guy that needs to go.

                      I really don’t think your proposal makes sense (not dissing it, simply stating that you won’t convince me personally that is better).

                      The way I see it they would need to have let Bozak walk as say sign Mac back at 2 years 3.25 million.

                      Then we save 1 million in cap space this year approximately. However Mac wouldn’t be a good replacement for JVR on the wing, and even if JVR acts as an upgrade at C, with the downgrade on the wing, we arent likely any better off.

                      Also, Bozak was a big part of our PK which without a great PK we don’t make it to the playoffs, and JVR has precisely 0 games of pro experience at center. Mac also is less useful all around. He is a scoring type winger. He doesn’t hit much, isn’t useful on the PK or in defensive situations. He is a top 6 winger or bust, so in all honesty I don’t like that route for the sake of saving a million bucks in cap space.

                      Personally I do think we will end up signing Kadri and Franson this year for what and go into the season with pretty much nothing but upgrades. To me that is a pretty solid summer.

                      However, just for fun I did come up with a proposal that I don’t think could ever happen, but was an interesting thought.

                      I was thinking about the Leafs going for Hedman in Tampa using Phaneuf and prospects as the center pieces.

                      Yzerman likes Phaneuf, he invites him to play for any orientation camp he has put together.

                      So I think something like this has to be the deal.

                      Phaneuf, Liles, Percy, Colborne and a 1st for

                      Hedman, Malone.

                      Leafs get about 2 million in cap relief for next year (not counting Colborne cause he either gets sent down or someone gets sent down to make room for him).

                      So Tampa can make this work now, and we take Malone to offset Liles as Tampa could use Liles more than they could Malone and vice versa.

                      Then it boils down to Phaneuf, 1st, Percy and Colborne for Hedman.

                      Hedman isn’t a massive and immediate upgrade over Phaneuf, however he can play those defensive minutes just as well right now, costs just 4 million against the cap, and is good enough on the PP that with our other weapons, we won’t likely lose a step. The Leafs do a lot of sweetening as they get the much larger upside in Hedman, and immediate cap space.

                      Like I said, far fetched, as I doubt Yzerman has interest in moving Hedman, but thats the kind of deal that could save cap space without making our team immediately weaker.

                    • realistic_leafs_fan says:

                      I was not even considering MacA and wouldn’t. I was more thinking trade and being able to take on a cap hit if Bozak wasn’t resigned. Maybe we could have been in on the Ryan sweepstakes. Maybe a deal with the rangers involving Kreider ir we took other salary. Edmonton has a ton of offensive youth…maybe we could have been in on Paajarvi. There are lots of teams that need some cap relief and players may be had if you can take back a contract as well. I had suggested Dion for Hedman in the past, but didn’t give up as much as you. Dion, Colborne, 1st, Percy and Liles for Hedman and Malone…let’s see if you get trashed as much as I would for that one.LOL

                    • DannyLeafs says:

                      I was just using MAC as an example of going cheaper. I am not sure all in all if there was anyone we could have gotten. Ryan maybe, but I don’t know if the Leafs had a forward to send back that falls into the top 6 upside group like it seemed Anaheim wanted.

                      As for the Hedman trade, it wouldn’t surprise me if people didn’t like it, but I think Hedman gets massively underrated, and with a good contract on a young guy, you need to pay for that upside. He is already a great defensive defensemen with decent offensive ability, but he is built like Chara, defensively aware, and his skating is closer to Jake Gardniner’s than Chara’s. He has taken some time to adapt, but he is a more defensive defensemen, the transition is never super fast for those guys, and he hasn’t shown any signs that he won’t continue his development.

                      As for what we give up, its basically a couple of prospects and a pick to upgrade from Phaneuf to a guy who does Phaneufs job just as well, but with a better contract and massive upside. We would need to give up something to get that.

                    • realistic_leafs_fan says:

                      You don’t have to defend Hedmen to me, I suggested it as well.lol
                      I do think Phaneuf, Colborne, Percy and a first (basically) for Hedman is a lot. That’s a first, two former firsts and a guy(phaneuf) who should be worth at least a first. It’s like 4 firsts and a second for Hedman, would you do it if that was the asking price? I wouldn’t.

                    • DannyLeafs says:

                      You are right, it is a lot, but guys like Hedman who aren’t being shopped for attitude problems and the like would require a lot to even make it a consideration.

                      At the end of the day it may be 2 former first, a first and Phaneuf who should have the value of a first, but to me it’s about what we are giving up.

                      Right now Colborne does not hold the same value as a first rounder anymore. He has upside and Tampa would need a body to play if they moved Malone. So he is a value adder, but given the Leafs top 6 contracts right now, I think he is exependable.

                      Percy becomes very expendable in a trade if we bring in a guy like Hedman. We would have Hedman, Gardiner, Franson and Rielly to build our D around. Talent wise that is very high end youth. With Finn still in the system with upside (or maybe Finn is the bait not percy?), and Gunnarsson signed to allow Rielly to grow, the Leafs D is very set and should develop well, so an expendable pick.

                      The First is a sweetner, maybe a bit of an overpayment, but a 2nd likely doesn’t get the job done.

                      Phaneuf is the centerpiece, as Tampa needs the offense from the back end as much as they need the D, so Phaneuf’s value to them may be more than he is to us in the long run. Also necessary to make the salaries work.

                      So it is a lot, but for the Leafs those pieces aren’t worth as much as say our next 4 firsts. If we could have that young D core right now, with our forward group, a pretty well managed cap, and all of our high picks going forward, that would be a great situation.

                      Besides, I have always looked at trade proposals as most of the ones that teams would actually consider require the fans of either side to be a little uncomfortable.

                    • realistic_leafs_fan says:

                      Out of all of that, Colborne is the one I would like to keep. Totally agree on trade proposals…That’s why I take so much abuse for mine because I give the other teams players value…I don’t suggest Fraser for Smid.lol

  10. “Second Buyout Period*
    For Clubs who have Club or Player elected Salary Arbitration filings
    pursuant to Article 12, within the forty-eight (48) hour period beginning on the third day
    following the later of: (i) the Club’s receipt of its last salary arbitration award; or (ii) settlement
    of its last case (provided such award was received or such settlement occurred prior to 7:00 p.m.
    New York time; awards or settlements that occurred or were received at or after 7:00 p.m. New
    York time will be deemed to have occurred or received the following business day for purposes
    of this provision).”

    I’m not sure the exact date the settlement occurred, but how much time does that leave to buyout Liles? Surely the clock is ticking if that’s their move.

  11. nordiques100 says:

    Minus the Liles contract, the Leafs are fine really cap wise. they have 6 mil now, and remove Liles, they have over 9 mil with just the 2 guys to re-sign and one or two depth spots to fill. the Leafs are still 20th in terms of cap space in the league.

    The talks about bad contracts or contracts lacking value is really moot if Liles was gone.

    But, the problem is he’s still around and the Leafs didn’t have any further avenues left to provide cap relief.

    The buyouts to Komisarek and Grabovski were a must. Their dollars were used for Bozak and Clarkson respectively.

    The team unfortunately still has another bad Burke signing in Armstrong on the books too at 1 mil. That will come off next season.

    the 500K loan they gave the Kings in the Bernier trade along with tucker’s 1 mil buyout will also come off the books.

    I think they’ve managed it pretty well considering they had taken away from them 6 million in cap space after the cap went down from 70 mil.

    Next year will be interesting with so many players to re-sign if they so choose: Kessel, Phaneuf, Gardiner, Reimer, Kulemin, Bolland, McClement, Fraser, Colborne. But they could have up to 35 million in cap space to work with.

    Certainly it will be used up quickly for all the re-signings, but, I don’t think they are close to a major problem like Chicago who had to dump 10 NHL regulars from when they won the cup in 2010.

  12. Gambo says:

    I would be interested to see something around a Franson for Tanev swap.

    Chris Tanev is 23, from Toronto and looks like he has a ton of upside. Rarely makes mistakes and can play up to 20 mins (so far). Great skater and shows strengths in both ends.

    Cody Franson is from BC and is the exact defenseman Vancouver needs right now. They have the shutdown guys, they needed a big right handed defenseman who can play on the PP. Franson and Hamuis have played together before, so they would have instant chemistry.

    If Toronto only took back a prospect or pick with Tanev and then signed Tanev for no higher than 2.5m, they would probably be left with an extra 1.5m than they would have if they were to sign Franson. That would leave them with enough to sign Kadri and call up another player. That’s without trading Liles too.

    • nordiques100 says:

      I think you need to shoot higher than that.

      Plus, any sort of physical game would be welcome by Carlyle on the defence. Tanev offers nothing of the sort.

      Its far more palatable to even waive and risk losing Ranger, or demoting Liles for a further 900K in space, as little as that is, than to trade Franson for a glorified minor leaguer.

      Tanev will be the Canucks Nathan Dempsey. the forever prospect.

      • realistic_leafs_fan says:

        Have to agree. Why would we trade Franson, a top 4 projected defenceman, for another RFA who may not even play regularly in the NHL or be a 6-7 guy at best likely AND pay him $2.5 mil.
        Gambo, after that suggestion, you are not allowed to trash anymore of my trades.LOL

        • Gambo says:

          You obviously haven’t ever watched him play. Funny, because Canucks fans like him more than Kassian and you wanted to trade Kessel, one of the best offensive players in the league for him. And I wasn’t saying to sign him for 2.5m, just proving a point that we could give him that money and still have enough cap space available.

          I really wish we would have more variety of fans on this site, I know all Vancouver fans would back me up and argue that Tanev is ready for top 4 minutes.

          By getting a 1st or decent prospect back in the trade you have the option to unload that pick or another prospect at the deadline for a player from a bottom team that will be a huge compliment to a team going for the cup.

          Say come deadline, SJ is out of the playoffs. Toronto would have extra picks to spare, some extra prospects as well and they could get a deal done to bring in Dan Boyle. Rather than Toronto having no cap space and no extra assets to spend, they will be able to make a move like this. For arguments sake, lets look at this lineup and see if it looks like a potential contender or not.

          JVR-Bozak-Kessel
          Lupul-Kadri-Clarkson
          McClement-Bolland-Kulemin
          McCleren-Colborne-Orr

          Gunarrsson-Phaneuf
          Gardiner-Boyle
          Ranger-Tanev
          Fraser

          Bernier/Reimer

          That lineup has two deadly scoring lines, on paper one of the best shutdown lines in the league, a defensive corps of two established top 2 players and four players capable of being top 4 guys. And two starters in net.

          Just showing what could be if you look beyond what the deal looks like. I love Franson, not trying to ship him out, but there are other options.

          • realistic_leafs_fan says:

            You said nothing about getting a 1st back, just a pick or prospect. A first and Tanev and I may like it. When you say pick or prospect…most will think a best 2nd round or mid prospect. I have seen Tanev play, not a lot, but I have seen him play. He skates well but is very raw otherwise. Vancouver fans will argue for their players just like many Toronto fans argue for their own on here. It doesn’t mean Tanev is ready. Just like the Dion to Edmonton trade you hate of mine…Edmonton fans hate it as well for the opposite reasons.

  13. realistic_leafs_fan says:

    If we are going to move Franson for a D prospect, let’s make it worth while. Buffalo for instance, has the cap space and need for a guy like Franson.
    If we could do something like
    Franson & D’Amigo for Pysyk & Foligno…it would help the cap issues in Toronto and give us a D back with top 4 potential, as well as a prospect with power forward size. Toronto should have the cap space left to sign Kadri easily and maybe a defensive D-veteran.
    Buffalo gets a top 4 ready RH d-man to play behind Myers for years to come and a speedy prospect.

    • Gambo says:

      How is Franson and D’Amigo for Pysyk and Foligno better than Franson for Tanev and 1st/Guance/other good prospect?

      Typical eastern bias.

      • nordiques100 says:

        its better because you never specified the level of prospect (Gaunce is a former 1st) and the 1st round pick being the pick you mentioned.

        For all we know it could have been Tanev and a 3rd and Eddie Lack….which still wouldn’t be enough.

        • realistic_leafs_fan says:

          Exactly. The quality of prospect or pick makes a huge difference.
          “If Toronto only took back a prospect or pick with Tanev and then signed Tanev for no higher than 2.5m” that does not even remotely suggest you were talking 1st or high pick. Plus if Tanev is as good as you say, why would Van need Franson? Tanev is a RH with good size and not considered a shut-down guy, more of a puck mover. Shouldn’t he be able to help their PP? I’m not even sure if Van could afford Franson anyway.

          • Gambo says:

            “If toronto only took back a pick and prospect..” Only being the key word, use your imagination. I should have specified, you’re right, but for some reason i thought it was obvious considering Franson is the much better of the two. I purposefully avoided making an actual proposal and just brought up the idea of a trade involving the two players so it would be more of a discussion, because you of all people should know what happens when you make actual proposals.

            And yes Vancouver would be able to sign him easy.

            • realistic_leafs_fan says:

              It was pick OR prospect, not pick AND prospect. Although I am starting to like your deal more and more. Franson for Tanev, Gaunce and a first. OK!lol
              Seriously though, How is anyone supposed to know you think Franson is much better than Tanev? You talked up Tanev and said he is already a up to 20 min a night guy. You then tried to back up your proposal saying Tanev is ready for top 4 minutes and we have eastern bias against him.
              You have said you would keep Kadri over Franson and that Gunnar is a more proven top 4 guy and Franson has not proven he is a top 4 guy yet, but Tanev has. Doesn’t sound like you think Franson is a lot better than Tanev to me.
              Again, You throw out Kessel for Kassian(which was actually based around Kessel for Luongo which was about the value Van was asking for at the time, but I get you need to take a shot because I don’t like your proposal.) Yes , I make trade proposals, some people like, some/many people don’t, but they are clear who is involved. I take my criticism and rebut if I feel needed. I don’t make a poor proposal and then say…oh, I meant the pick or prospect was a 1st rounder or top prospect when no one likes it.
              How would Van be able to sign Franson easy? They are at $59.9 mil already with only 5 D, 13 forwards and 2 goalies signed. One D is a depth signing in Weber. It will take a minimum $1.5mil to sign 2 others (1d,1F) for a full roster if they had Franson as well. That leaves about $2.9 for Franson which would put them right at the cap. How is that “easy”?

              • Gambo says:

                Haha i didn’t mean to say pick and prospect up there, it was like 7am give me a break. Pick or prospect (of significant value) and i still stand by what i said. And i’ve never said that Franson isn’t a top 4 defenseman, i think he’s a #3 right now, i still think Gunnarsson is more reliable, but lets not get into that now.

                Vancouver doesn’t have to go with a 23 man roster, but if they choose to they can buy out Booth. They have options that the leafs don’t have to make room for Franson money. Unless the amnesty buyout window has closed then i’m completely wrong and it’s not easy to sign him.

                • nordiques100 says:

                  unfortunately no buyouts can happen now i don’t believe.

                  that post arbitration buyout timeline just ended.

                  i am surprised they didnt buy out Booth, but nothing really surprises me with vancouver and some of the questionable things they do.

                  • realistic_leafs_fan says:

                    I believe it ended on the 4th or around there, which ended speculation of us buying out Liles as well. I just didn’t see Van as a fit anyway. They already have 4 D making $4.5 or more. Another D around the $3.5 or up range, didn’t seem likely.
                    I see 12 teams with the cap space and/or assets with need for Franson. Caps, SJ, Ott, NYR, NYI, Preds, FLA, COL, CAR, CAL, Buf and Ducks.

                    Wouldn’t it be something if the Leafs started talks with the Blues around Pietrangelo for Franson, Kadri + whatever needed. We would somehow have to take salary back, but if the Leafs could move Liles, it could work cap wise.
                    Maybe something like
                    To STL
                    Franson, Kadri, Percy, 2014 1st, 2015 2nd
                    To Toronto
                    Pietrangelo, Berglund

                    I doubt STL trades Pietrangelo or TO trades both Franson and Kadri, but it would be a blockbuster deal if it revolved around those three.

  14. nordiques100 says:

    i dont believe Piets is going anywhere.

    I think something along the lines of

    Franson to Dallas for Jamie Oleksiak is something plausible.

    I don’t know if we’d get a stud like Piets without reilly/gardiner included.

    I think another possibility could be a package revolving around Franson/Kulemin for Marc Staal. but i dont believe Staal is actively available.

    • realistic_leafs_fan says:

      I didn’t see Dallas as a fit considering how much money is tied up in the top 4 already, but I can see the Franson for Oleksiak idea being plausible if Dallas was to move some D money.
      I see something around Kulimen to Pitt for Orpik being possible. I think Franson would be a great fit for NYR but Girardi instead of Staal would comeback to the Leafs. I just mean main players in trade not straight-up for each other.

      • nordiques100 says:

        yes the higher the player, the more it has to be a package.

        yeah i thought about that with Dallas, i guess in terms of the level of player, Oleksiak is reasonable and probably the highest they can get for Franson.

  15. 93killer93 says:

    Tor
    Oleksiak, 3rd(Dal)
    Dal
    Gunnarsson, Kabanov
    NyI
    Liles, Holzer

    Re-sign
    Kadri 2 years 6mil
    Franson 1 year 3.25mil

    Sign
    Chad LaRose 1 year 1mil
    Ryan Whitney 1 year 1.5mil
    Tom Gilbert 1 year 1.5mil
    Cam Barker 1 year 925k
    Colten Teubert 1 year 925k
    Chet Pickard 1 year 925k

    JVR-Bozak-Kessel
    Lupul(A)-Kadri-Clarkson(A)
    Kulemin-Bolland-LaRose
    McClement(A)-Colborne-Orr
    Mclaren

    Whitney-Phaneuf(C)
    Gardiner-Franson
    Ranger-Gilbert
    Fraser

    Reimer
    Bernier

    Marlies

    D’Amgio-McKegg-Ashton
    Leivo-Smith(C)-Biggs
    Ross-Carrick-Ryan
    Broll-Crescenzi-Bodie(A)
    Abott

    Barker(A)-Teubert
    Oleksiak-Blacker
    Percy-Granberg
    Marshall

    Pickard
    Gibson
    MacIntyre

    • Steven_Leafs0 says:

      First thing, all those defenceman you signed makes no sense. They would want one way deals so putting them in the Marlies is pointless and if they take a two way deal they will be claimed on waivers. I also don’t think we should sign a 3rd line forward or bust type of player when we have a lot of young players looking to make the jump.

      As for the trade itself I wouldn’t move Gunnarsson and Holzer for Oleksiak and a 3rd. Completely screw our top 4 defence to get a potential top 4 defender. Bad move IMO.

      If moving Liles and Holzer to NYI was possible for a Holzer level prospect or player then we should just do that.

      Nice post but it doesn’t work for Toronto unless Rielly and Gardiner are 100% ready for 20+ minutes a night.

  16. realistic_leafs_fan says:

    I think we would be way over are allowable pro contracts limit for one. Have to pretty much agree with Steven on the rest, although glad to see the Liles contract gone.

    How about this.

    St. Louis needs cap relief for Piet’s and Polak has fallen down the depth chart.

    St. Louis
    Holzer, Blacker
    Toronto
    Polak

    St. Louis saves as much as $2.75 off the cap and Toronto get a solid RH D-man.

    Buffalo
    Franson, Kulimen
    Toronto
    Pysyk, Foligno, Weber

    Toronto saves approx. $2.8-$3.5 mil in cap space while picking up a solid RH D prospect in Pysyk, A big, LW power forward in Foligno and a stay at home LD in Weber.
    Buffalo gets a second pairing RD in Franson and a 2/3 line 2 way winger in Kulimen.

    NYI
    Liles, plus Toronto retains $1mil per season of contract
    Toronto
    2014 5th

    Leafs now have around $8mil in cap space.
    Sign Kadri 2 years $3.15 per (same as Gunnar 🙂
    Sign A. Stewart 1 year $1mil
    $4mil in cap space still available.

    Lupul Bozak Kessel
    JVR Kadri Clarkson
    Foligno Bolland McClement
    Stewart Colborne Orr
    McLaren, Smith

    Gunnar Phaneuf
    Gardiner Polak
    Weber Ranger
    Fraser Pysyk

    Reimer, Bernier

  17. LN91 says:

    Well, Antropov and Ponikarovsky just joined the KHL.

    I’m still waiting for Josh’s emotional speech about “How we ran them out of town?”

    Blah, blah, blah. They were never good…In that period, Toronto was just that bad. The mostly horrendous post-Leaf careers of Antropov, Ponikarovsky, Kaberle, etc. was proof of that.

    Larry Murphy is one Leaf…Who are these other valuable commodities that Toronto ran out?

    • leafs_wallace93 says:

      Dion Phaneuf

    • DannyLeafs says:

      I don’t know how many I would say were completely run out of town like Murphy, but Leafs fans have a history of massively underrating our own talent and their contributions, and if Kessel leaves to play somewhere with less pressure, we could certainly add his name to that list.

      There are a lot of Leafs fans that really pan some of our best players, and very few are free of very harsh criticism. I mean Sundin was a big classy centerman who is a hall of famer who holds NHL records when it comes to consistency and he still wasn’t able to escape constant trade proposals, and talk of him not being able to get the job done. I am not talking about just the end either. Since he has left we have been completely unable to get a center near his caliber to replace him, but there are still fans that talk about him like he is a mediocre talent that screwed the leafs.

      • realistic_leafs_fan says:

        Yea, Sundin got treated like shit by many. It should show to those that criticized him, now that we don’t have a guy like him, how good he was. I hated how fans treated him when he wouldn’t waive his NTC. Then fans wonder why players may not have wanted to sign here(if that was true at all). Burke should get some credit for changing that culture. He treated his players with respect. As for Sundin, the guy gave everything to this team and then fans felt like he owed it to us to move on so we can get some return. So, the message to players from fans is…thanks for the past, but you still owe us, so leave. Plus, the guy wanted to stay, but it was management that said, Thanks, but no thanks.
        To be fair regarding Leaf fans undervaluing their own , Leaf fans also tend to undervalue players from other teams as well, when comparing to their own players.

        • DannyLeafs says:

          Sundin got a raw deal. Didn’t help that Fletcher kind of threw him under the bus. It’s one of those things in a big market that is bound to happen. It was still a minority that hated Sundin, but a fan base that big leads to even a minority group being quite large.

          The worst thing about that incident was Fletcher. He really tried to put pressure on Sundin to waive the NTC, but I mean what GM signs a guy to a 1 year deal with an NTC then criticizes him for waiting to stay the whole year. Just dumb. We were lucky to have a guy with that kind of talent that wanted to stay here. I mean to put it in context, Eric Staal would need to put up an average of about 1.1 points per game for another 8 NHL seasons to have the same type of career as Sundin. I use Staal because he plays a comparable game and has comparable consistency.

          • realistic_leafs_fan says:

            Sundin was a great player, completely agree on Fletcher, classless move…and Staal would have to do it with mostly Antripov and Ponikarovsky on his wing. Those two were fine second liners, but were nowhere near first liners when they were in Toronto.

        • leafs_wallace93 says:

          Sundin got a raw deal? MLSE bent over backwards to build a competitive team around him and Mats wouldn’t give back to the organization to waive (but he’d walk for Vancouver for nothing) his NTC. After Mats refused to waive Kaberle (Jeff Carter and a 1st!!!) and Kubina (Clowe) pretty much had to follow suit and go down with the ship.

          Mats single buried the Leafs after he was treated like a franchise player when in reality he would have been better suited as a 2nd line center on a championship team.

          If Mats got a ‘raw deal’ then so did McCabe who was treated like garbage from the moment he signed his extension but no one defends McCabe.

          • realistic_leafs_fan says:

            McCabes contract was his downfall, much like Grabo’s. He didn’t live up to his pay. Sundin did though.
            Sundin wanted to stay and retire as a Leaf…it was management that said they didn’t want him back. He walked because of how he was treated at the trade deadline. Fletcher went public before the deadline, saying he wants to trade Mats, but he won’t waive his NTC and said they basically have no desire to bring Mats back. Fletcher then flip-flopped in the off-season saying he wanted Mats back.
            Yes, the Leafs were very competitive with Mats pre-salary cap and iced some very good teams. Boston iced some good teams with Ray Bourque as well, but he never won a cup there. It was Bourque that asked to be moved for a chance to win, not the team saying “time for you to go” like they did with Sundin. Bourque likely wouldn’t have been traded if he wanted to stay.
            Sundin’s situation is not like the Alfie situation where the team wants him to stay and he bolts last second. If Ottawa had of said “goodbye Alfie” many would have said “what a shitty way to treat the guy after all he has done.” No cup for Alfie in Ottawa, but he deserves more respect?
            As for Kaberle, Kubina etc. They were free to make their own decision. Maybe they didn’t waive their NTC’s because of what Fletcher was doing to Sundin publically. I don’t know.
            We ask players to be loyal…and then criticise them when they try. Alfie did a way bigger slap in the face, but doesn’t seem to get a lot of flack. Go figure. What if Phanuef saye refuses to report to another team at the deadline if Toronto tries to trade him…

          • DannyLeafs says:

            Well I am one of the people that would agree with you on McCabe. The guy was great for most of his career with Toronto yet seems to be remembered for how it ended and being overpaid more than for the years of great hockey he gave us.

            I don’t agree at all with Mats burying the team. He was asked to waive his NTC one year, that was after the proposed Kaberle for Carter and a 1st, so those decisions had nothing to do with one another. Mats was given a 1 year deal with an NTC by the same guy who turned around and threw him under the bus for not waiving it. He didn’t walk away for Vancouver, he got ousted in Toronto, but wasn’t really ready to stop playing hockey. It wasn’t an easy decision for him, but how can you blame him.

            As far as being a 2nd line center on a championship team, that’s just a massive undervaluing of his talent and skill. The guy finished top 10 in center scoring in 15 of his NHL seasons. Throw in playing through injuries so that he never missed more than 12 games in a single year over that span, and not having a single season in his career with the Leafs averaging less than .9 pts per game, and you have a bonafide top line center without leaving much debate.

  18. nordiques100 says:

    There seems to be a bit of a lull in activity and that is mainly due to teams either being set with a full roster already, at or over the cap, or both having a set roster and no cap space.

    The Jets are a team that shouldn’t be spending too much but are over $61 million in cap. They have no real needs other than getting another centre, unless Mark Schiefle is ready. In that case, their roster appears set and no further moves are needed.

    Chicago is fairly set as well. They are at close to $63 mil but have a full roster, with many prospects challenging for 2 or 3 roster spots. They’ll likely stand pat until into the season.

    Colorado is one of the few teams with some cap space at just $53 mil committed and there are no key RFAs to re-sign. They have needs on D, but are probably willing to go into the year with what they have. They could though try and turn Paul Stastny into something but his contract at 6.6 mil cap hit is not palatable or feasible for many teams.

    The Stars are at 59 mil so they have a bit of room to work with. I think another top 9 forward would help them. There was some talk of Dan Cleary but nothing came to fruition. I am sure they will look for bargains as camp nears. They are prepared too to go with a lot of young prospects and give them long looks including 1st round pick Valeri Nichushkin.

    The Wild have 2 million in cap space and a full roster. They’d love to get rid of Heatley and his big deal but who would take him? No one right now. Their D could be better, but they just don’t have any wiggle room.

    The Preds have committed $58 mil so far and that is very high for this small market team. They have some holes to fill on defence and need a backup goalie. But they could very well be prepared to go with rookies Seth Jones and Mattias Ekholm on D and probably Magnus Hellberg to backup Pekka Rinne in goal and not look to acquire any veteran outside help.

    The Blues have cap space, but any or all of which remains will be allocated to Alex Pietrangelo. That is their one and only priority right now.

    The Canes have 4 mil in cap space, but are only looking for a few depth players. If they manage to find 2 or 3 other players like Nathan Gerbe, willing to play for the league minimum of 550K, then that is who they will bring, but i doubt they will spend much more than that.

    The Blue Jackets, another small market, are quite close to the 64 mil cap max at almost $62 mil in cap commitments. They need a backup goalie but are prepared to go with Curtis McElhinney. Yeah they need a backup goalie.

    The Devils have been in a lot of rumors of late. They are trying to still add some further replacements for Kovalchuk who retired. They are just under $58 mil in commitment, but still have to re-sign Adam Hendrique. Their defence is terrible and could use some upgrades. But with them focusing more on forwards, who knows if they will make any changes.

    The Isles have a crate full of cap space at around $16 mil. they will not spend even close to all of that. However, they are in a position to help a team or two in a crunch. They have some needs on defence as they need to add another top 4 guy. They haven’t replaced Mark Streit.

    The Rangers should have just enough cap space to re-sign Derek Stepan. But when they do re-sign him, they wont have any cap space left or at most very little. they could be looking at moving a player like Taylor Pyatt or Darryl Powe but those are not really significant players of interest.

    The Flyers are slightly over the cap. They will get relief when they put Chris Pronger on LTIR. Until then, they are pretty well stuck.

    The Pens are over the cap. They are probably looking to move Jussi Jokinen and/or Matt Niskanen but again, with so many teams fairly close to the cap, and probably more willing to go with players from within, there doesn’t seem to be much of a market now.

    The caps needs to re-sign Marcus Johannsson and have been rumored to have interest in Grabovski. They have just under 6 mil in space left and they are too not the deepest team on defence. It will be interesting to see what they do.

    The Ducks have a manageable 6+ mil in space left but are simply waiting on Teemu Selanne to make a decision on whether he is returning or not. If he does not, look for them to be active finding a scoring forward. Otherwise, they’ll be happy to see Selanne back and he will probably be their last acquisition until into the season.

    The Flames really have nothing much on the go as they are prepared to keep a few jobs really wide open. They could use more scoring and more strength on D, but are prepared to have a lot of young players compete for roles on the team. They have 9 mil or so in cap space so they have some flexibility to help a team perhaps.

    Edmonton seemed to be a lot of talk and no action as MacT wanted to make big moves but really hasn’t found any takers. Its not like they are in cap difficulties, but i am surprised for sure they just didn’t remove Hemsky. They are still a pretty soft team that lacks experience but they seem to want to wait for a home run deal to fall into their lap.

    The Kings have a mil in cap space and a fairly set roster. They seem to be done until the season starts.

    The Coyotes have a couple of players to re-sign in Mikael Boedker and David Runblad but neither will break the bank. They have real owners now so it will be interesting to see how long it takes before they start to want to pare salaries.

    The Sharks have a million in cap space, but need some depth forwards and a backup goalie. They will have no one interested in Martin Havlat, by far their worst salary on the books. Depth will be an issue for them.

    Once the Canucks re-sign Chris Tanev, they should still have about 3 mil left over. They need another centre and further forward depth. But they have been really quiet all summer up to this point and probably will remain that way until the eve of the season where we may see Gillis try and pick the bones of what’s left over.

    The Bruins are set, other than to acquire a backup goalie. But they could use Chad Johnson because really Rask will play a lot. They will probably conserve whatever cap space they have to use later in the year and at the deadline.

    The Sabres have struggled to re-sign Cody Hodgson. They have talked about a lot of big moves but really have done very little. They are prepared to give ample opportunity to young players. They could use another top 9 forward since they’ve never really replaced Jason Pominville. But again, they are very happy to do that from within. They have over 11 million in cap space.

    The Wings are trying to re-sign Gustav Nyqvist and need to open the log jam they have at forward. With all the veterans on the roster, 1 or 2 of their younger forwards could be lost on waivers. They want to make room for Tomas Tatar and Martin Frk. Mikael Samuelsson is a candidate to go but again, its tough. Another defenceman wouldnt hurt the cause. They have just under 2 mil in cap space left.

    Florida is very set other than adding another defenceman. They are another team with about 13 mil in cap space that could help another team out. There would need to be proper incentive (i.e get back a good prospect) as they are not a cap team.

    Montreal is one of the teams who set their roster the earliest. They are prepared to go with the 25-27 players they have and have a bit of cap space to use for flexibility.

    Ottawa needs to re-sign Jared Cowen and have lots of cap space to use. They are more apt to take a 1 year rental though than to add a player on a long term deal. They have managed their finances well.

    Tampa has about 2 mil left, and could use probably an extra forward and help on D. they will get some relief when Mattias Ohlund goes to LTIR. They wont be able to do anything significant though unless they dump Ryan Malone.

    Toronto still needs to re-sign Kadri and Franson. While they can, they will have no cap space and can probably only carry 20 players. They’d love to move Liles but again, read above, hardly any teams are really in need of anyone and no one is anxious to do anything. They will need to get creative with Liles. They can no longer buy him out. I think the Leafs may have to think about taking back perhaps as much as a million dollars per season back if not a bit more to entice a team to want Liles. That would at least open 2 more million in cap space. I mean they can’t even use Ashton or D’Amigo because they make too much to fit under the cap.

    So as you can see, not really anything happening and really not really any teams all that eager to do anything or need to do anything. Its leaving some interesting names like Grabovski, Cleary, Brunner, Hainsey and others stuck waiting.

    I am hopeful the Leafs can resolve the cap issues, but we’re all going to have to wait i guess. Its not something us fans do all that well!

    • realistic_leafs_fan says:

      I agree with pretty much all of that Nords. My proposal above does solve a lot of issues for St.Louis, Toronto, Buffalo and the Islanders.
      Also, god to hear Gauthier playing well at the juniors MLF.(not MF. lol)

  19. mapleleafsfan says:

    Gauthier has been playing well in the pre-world jr games. Always good to see.

    • realistic_leafs_fan says:

      Speaking of the future a bit.
      I would like to see the Leafs go after Sol and Cormier of Winnipeg. Cormier would provide some grit and size for the bottom6 and Sol could take over the tough enforcer kind of role on D if Fraser wants too much next year. Doesn’t look like either player is really in the Jets future plans as they have size and toughness on D and Trouba will make it before Sol does for sure. Cormier is not really what they need either, as they need scorers.
      They need some scoring help and would probably prefer a puck mover on D instead.
      The Leafs could use some bottom six grit and size and toughness on D.
      Maybe something like DÀmigo and Percy for Cormier and Sol would benefit both teams. DÀmigo is not likely to make the Leafs top 6(maybe not even top 9)as Toronto is most deep on the wings and Percy is the style defenceman the Leafs already have enough of.

      • LN91 says:

        Why though? No point to get either 2…Does not help Toronto at all, especially with so many prospects that can play the bottom-6 effectively in the Leafs system.

        • realistic_leafs_fan says:

          As I said…Leafs do not have a D like Sol in the system, but do have players like Percy. Reilly, Gardiner, Brennan are all players Percy is behind on the depth charts that play similar style. We do not have a big intimidating prospect like Sol on D.
          Cormier give us a gritty bottom six guy with size that we lack in our system and which D’Amigo is not any of that.
          We have enough smallish puck movers on D and forwards without size but speed. We need some more grit and size in our system so we don’t have to spend large on veterans to get it. I see it as a need for Toronto.

  20. realistic_leafs_fan says:

    Since nothing is happening.
    Just for discussion, I know some don’t like trade proposals, but they do create some discussion.

    Caps want a true second line centre and have cap space.
    Toronto wants a true shut-down D and could use some cap relief.
    St. Louis needs cap relief.
    Buffalo needs some talent all around, especially on the wing.

    To Caps
    Kadri, Gunnarsson
    To Toronto
    Alzner, Wilson

    To St. Louis
    2014 1st, Blacker
    To Toronto
    Berglund

    To Buffalo
    Kulimen, Holzer
    To Toronto
    Foligno, McNabb

  21. Caps: Alzner would be great, but I’m guessing this is done knowing the second trade with the Blues is definitely going through? Wilson has a big frame, but I think this is a bit of an over-payment for the leafs. Kadri has a good half of a half season of being consistent, but you know him and Gunner are capable of. I don’t do this trade.

    Blues:
    I love Berglund. I think he’s underrated by a lot of people. Is he worth a first round? Probably. Adding Blacker is harmless. This makes leafs better if you ask me.

    Buffalo:
    No chance. McNabb probably has another 1-2 years before they even think about moving him. Buffalo could use a 2-way like Kulemin, though.

    • realistic_leafs_fan says:

      Caps. May be a bit over overpayment, but the Leafs cannot take on contract money. Yes, Blues deal was in place for this to happen.
      Blues. First deal allows this to happen. Gunnar had to go so Caps would move Alzner and not ask us to take a cap hit back. Beglund may be available since they signed Roy with Backes, Sobotka, Lapierre, Oshie, Aucoin all able to play centre.
      Buffalo. McNabb may be tough to get, but as you said, they could use Kulimen more than Foligno right now and Holzer is a solid physical 6-7 guy. Sabres also have Pysyk and Ristolainen coming up.

      This is designed to also free the cap space to sign Franson.

      Sad thing to me is, and many Leafs fans are happy with the signing, to each their own. If we had not signed Bozak, we could have gone after Berglund, took on his contract, and still had money for Kadri and Franson.
      St. Louis trade goes through as is. Then, if you’re good with it.lol Trade you Kulimen(+mid pic/prospect if needed) for Boyle and Powe.

      Leafs could have been for the same money

      Lupul Berglund Kessel
      JVR Kadri Clarkson
      Colborne Bolland Boyle
      Powe McClement Orr
      McLaren

  22. DannyLeafs says:

    I am not big on trade proposals normally, especially complicated ones, but seeing as there isn’t much else to discuss during the August lull, I was looking around for something as a starting point for a discussion.

    Essentially centered around shedding cap space for the Leafs and possibly upgrading our D. This is a Phaneuf centered proposal, and as I have stated, I am not a big fan of moving him without bringing in a better defensive defender as I think he gets undervalued a lot. My biggest criticism with Phaneuf is that in the long term we would be paying for certain attributes that we might not value as highly as other teams, so there are better fits who aren’t necessarily far better defensmen. For example, Dan Girardi who in my opinion is similar in terms of league stature as Phaneuf, however he is better defensively and not as good offensively, but for the Leafs that would actually be an improvement. So here is my proposal.

    To Colorado:
    Phaneuf, Liles, 2nd (Tor)

    To New York Rangers:
    Barrie, 1st (col – Lottery protected)

    To Toronto:
    Girardi

    Toronto retains 3.25 million of Phaneuf’s salary for next seasons.

    Colorado gets Phaneuf and Liles which is an immediate and massive upgrade to their D and especially their PP. Toronto retains 3 million of Phaneuf’s salary next year which allows them to make a splash but not spend too much money. The 2nd is a sweetner to make giving up the 1st palatable.

    New York gets Barrie who is a right handed shot who is NHL ready still on an ELC and brings an element of offense that they really covet, as well as a lottery protected 1st.

    Toronto gets Girardi and great cap relief. In year one of this deal they get nearly 4 million in cap relief even while holding back some of Phaneuf’s salary, and after that they no longer have Liles or any retained salary. By holding back more now, they could free up some cap space sooner. I think for Toronto to get full value for what they gave up there would need to be some indication that Girardi would be willing to sign an extension.

    So this is my rationale.

    Colorado just brought in big names to the office and coaching, and picked first overall, they want to compete now. Everything Phaneuf brings are elements they lack, and they were apparently quite high on the idea of signing Liles on the cheap if he were bought out, so they won’t completely hate the idea of getting him. The 3.25 million in year one is as good to them as getting 3 million held back over the next 3 years on Liles deal, and they would probably prefer to save it up front. The 2nd is necessary to get them to give up the 1st, as they do Covet Barrie.

    For the Rangers I was actually did some looking around on Rangers boards to get an idea of how much they value Girardi. I was quite surprised that the majority are voicing that they should either trade him or let him walk if he wants a cent over 4 million. So to get a haul of Barrie and a lottery protected 1st for a guy you might let walk would be a boon. Barrie brings great offensive instincts to a team that could use them, and he will slide in now for 900k. He played 20+ minutes last year, granted he played for the leagues worst D core, but he is young with upside and fills on on the right side which will be important when giving up Girardi. The immediate cap relief will let them easily sign Stepan, so all in all, not a bad return. I know just because Rangers fans as a whole may not highly value Girardi, doesn’t mean the organization doesn’t but they would have a tough cap situation next year if they wanted to re-sign him, so realistically it would make some sense to shop him.

    Toronto gets a guy who isn’t really just flat out better than Phaneuf all-round, but is a better fit. He plays the right side better, which would be great with guys like Rielly and Gardiner being more natural on the Left in the long run, he moves the puck well, can skate, ans is better defensively. We won’t miss Phaneuf’s added offense nearly as much as we will covet Girardi’s additional defensive prowess, so for the money I think he will do more good for our line up then Phaneuf would have long term. I would be comfortable at 5 years 5-5.25 million for Girardi. It would make him our bonafide #2 shutdown guy, but is a reasonable price to pay a guy with room to pay a higher end guy if Gardiner or Rielly turn into all-star type studs. Finally the cap relief to easily sign Fraonson and Kadri this year, as well as not having any real bad baggage contracts or retained salary after next year would make the deal as a whole pretty sweet in my opinion. I think it would be fair value, maybe the Rangers need to send the 2nd to Colorado instead of the Leafs or something like that, but even if it was our 2nd I would still do this deal.

    Feel free to tear it apart, or if anyone else has thoughts on what Girardi should be worth on his next contract or whether or not they think the Rangers will keep him long term go for it. Just looking to spark a little debate.

    Thoughts?

    • realistic_leafs_fan says:

      Although I see the rationale behind this, I don’t see it as a good deal for NYR. Barrie is a smallish offensive D-man who’s defensive game is poor to say the least. NYR already has Stralman, so Barrie is not what they need. I like how Liles got moved and the salary retention part is creative. If Phaneuf doesn’t re-sign though, they are stuck with Liles at $3.875 and lost a 1st and Barrie.

      I could see Phaneuf as a fit in Colorado though, and I agree they will want to start winning sooner than later with new management and coaches. With Dion’s salary and being a pending UFA, I think it will be highly unlikely we get a shut-down guy for him as they usually are paid much less. I think it will take two moves(at least) to get that done.
      If it was Colorado, I would want some youth.
      To Toronto
      O’Reilly, Siemens(future shut-down)
      To Colorado
      Phaneuf, Kulimen (2 UFA’s but makes them better now and Colorado has spent very little on D, so re-signing Dion should be able to be done)

      other possibles after first trade.

      To Toronto
      Polak
      To St.Louis
      Holzer, 2014 3rd(gives STL cap room to sign Piet’s)

      To Toronto
      Orpik
      To Pitt
      Gunnarsson, 2013 3rd(a little extra cap room and Gunnar is already signed. The addition of Scuderi makes Orpik expendable if they get Gunnar back.

      I don’t see an immediate shut-down return for Dion, so if we move him, something else will have to be done.

      The closest possibility might be Gleason from Carolina. They have a little cap room left but I believe they are against their internal cap.

      To Toronto
      Gleason, Rask
      To Carolina
      Phaneuf, Toronto retains $1mil of contract

      Liles to Calgary would seem like a good fit if we agreed to keep about a $1mil in salary.

      Dion, if dealt, will most likely be for prospects and/or picks at the deadline. Especially if Toronto is having a poor season.imo

    • Steven_Leafs0 says:

      While an interesting idea I cannot see the Leafs moving Phaneuf and a pick for a guy people would argue is a downgrade (even though to get a very good defender like Girardi and dump Liles we would easily have to give up that 2nd).

      I also cannot see Colorado agreeing to move a solid prospect in Barrie AND a 1st round pick (lottery protected or not) for a rental Phaneuf, the Leafs would have to include a conditional 1st which would make the deal horrible.

    • Gambo says:

      I like the idea of getting Girardi and would be okay with losing Phaneuf for him. Phaneuf is the better player, but Girardi is the exact player we need. Right handed and strong defensively. He would be perfect for one of Rielly or Gardiner. Girardi would replace Phaneuf’s minutes on the PK and Gardiner or even Rielly could replace Phaneuf’s minutes on the PP.

      I also think your value is fair, it is a risk for Colorado if Phaneuf isn’t already resigned, but you need to take risks to win.

      I’m not a fan of trading Phaneuf, but that’s one that makes sense.

      • realistic_leafs_fan says:

        I am a little surprised to see Phaneuf fans ok with moving Dion if we could obtain Girardi.
        NYR needs the cap space, but let’s deal with them direct since both key players are pending UFA and Dion normally plays the right side anyway.
        It would take two deals to get done what I will propose.

        1st
        To Toronto
        Foligno RFA (Toronto clears $1.9 mil in cap space)
        To Buffalo
        Kulimen UFA

        2nd
        To Toronto
        Girardi UFA, Boyle UFA(NYR clears $1mil in cap space to help sign Stepan)
        To NYR
        Phaneuf UFA(Toronto retains $2.5 mil of Phaneuf`s contract)

        With both trades, Toronto gets $900,000 in cap relief to help sign both Kadri and Franson. NYR gets $1mil in cap relief to get Stepan signed.

        With adding Boyle and Foligno, Kulimen is expendable and Girardi adds the shut-down guy Toronto needs.

        NYR gets size and PP help in Phaneuf who also handles playing in a big market well.

        Buffalo gets some much needed scoring help from a solid two way winger.

        What do you guys think?

  23. realistic_leafs_fan says:

    Toronto needs RH d-men and Nashville needs LH D-men.

    Toronto has Phaneuf, Gunnar, Ranger, Liles, Brennan, Fraser, Reilly, Percy all LH D. Franson(un-signed),Holzer and Blacker are the only RH D Leafs have that could play in the NHL, with Franson being the only sure thing.

    Nashville has Weber, Klein, Ellis and Jones as RH, with Rosi, Bartley and Ekholm as LH.

    Leafs are strong on the left side and Nasville strong on the right.

    Gunnar could easily pair with one of Weber, Ellis or Jones and Klein plays more of a shut-down role for Phaneuf or Gardiner. Klein and Gunnar play similar minutes with similar contracts, similar styles but from opposite sides.

    My suggestion would be either
    To Toronto
    Klein
    To Nashville
    Gunnar

    Or to fill other needs for each team
    To Toronto
    Klein, Gaustad(can play wing, great in faceoffs)
    To Nashville
    Gunnar, Kulimen(UFA at end of season, but would add secondary scoring)

    Cap compliant and fills needs for both teams.imo

    If the Leafs could move Liles as well. I would definitely look at trying to pry Polak out of St. Louis(shouldn’t take a lot). We would be solid on the right side with Klein, Franson, Polak, Holzer/Blacker(if not used to get Polak). Left side Phaneuf, Gardiner, Ranger, Brennan, Reilly and Percy.

    No disrespect to Gunnar, but that is a lot more balanced D.

    • mapleleafsfan says:

      I like the first one. Shed a little salary and fills a bigger need. Adds some more size too.

      Second one I’m not into really. Not that value is really off or anything, just makes less sense. Don’t want to bring Gaustad in to play wing when Kuley is a better winger. And Gaustad isn’t beating any of the centers we have currently for a role (aside from 4th line, but that’s a waste). I don’t think swapping Kuley for Gaustad is worth having an extra faceoff man personally.

  24. reinjosh says:

    So Kadri or Franson. It really looks unlikely that the Leafs will be able to keep both. It’s possible that the Leafs could fit both but it would require a little finnagling.

    Trevor Smith would need to be kept on the team instead of McClaren, JM Liles would be replaced by TJ Brennan with Holzer being sent down.

    Kadri would then need to sign for 3 million or less, leaving just over 3.65 million left to sign Franson (if Kadri takes the full 3 million).

    Brennan is a guy that really interests me. He’s been a player with some solid potential for a while, and he had some nice numbers in 19 games with Florida last year. Interestingly he has a lot of similar qualities to Franson. Good breakout pass, good shot but also has some very good skating. He could be a solid third pairing guy or 7th dman to replace Liles. And he might be the last resort option to replace Franson (in the bottom pairing, not the top 4 Franson).

    I would expect to see a defense that looks like one of two options come October (in no specific order). A) Phaneuf, Gardiner, Ranger, Liles, Gunnar, Fraser, Brennan or B) Phaneuf, Gardiner, Ranger, Franson, Gunnar, Fraser, Brennan

    Now that’s assuming it’s Franson that is traded. Kadri could be as well. That’s a tough decision to make. My gut says they’d choose Kadri over Franson, because of their lack of center depth, and the fact that Kadri plays a game that no other center in the organization plays. But then again you could say very similar things about Franson. It wouldn’t be an easy decision to make no doubt.

    Who would bring more back in a trade? Kadri or Franson?

    • mapleleafsfan says:

      Kadri I imagine. Younger, higher upside, more covetted position.

      I look to trade someone else over either of them though. Send Liles with a pick somewhere or trade Gunnarsson.

      If we are forced to trade either of those guys, especially for a poor return, it makes the Clarkson signing that much for obscene.

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