Will Jagr, Carle return?

Now that their season is over, where do the Flyers go from here?

Well, one of the first things on general manager Paul Holmgren’s agenda is trying to resign defenseman Matt Carle ($3.4 million cap hit this year) and right winger Jaromir Jagr ($3.3 million), a pair of potential unrestricted free agents. The Flyers would like to sign both players, a source said

The Flyers have $61.2 million committed to next year. If Chris Pronger is on the long-term injured reserve list again next season, the Flyers will get $4.9 million of cap relief.

That would mean they would have about $56.2 million committed to 2012-13 salaries. The current cap is $64.3 million, but it is expected to rise to around $69 million.

So the Flyers would have about $13 million of cap room, and that number will drop when they sign restricted free agents Jakub Voracek and Marc-Andre Bourdon.

They could free more room by dealing winger James van Riemsdyk ($4.25 million), and, remember, Nashville defenseman Ryan Suter, a potential UFA who figures to get a big raise from his $3.5 million salary, is on the Flyers’ radar.

The 40-year-old Jagr, who scored just one goal in 11 playoff games _ none against the Devils _ said he didn’t know what would happen in the off-season.

Read more: http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/inqflyersreport/Will-Jagr-Carle-return.html#ixzz1uNi0DpFm
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25 Responses to Will Jagr, Carle return?

  1. realistic_leafs_fan says:

    There was a lot of opinions on here that Holmgren was a genius when he moved Richards and Carter and signed Bryzgalov. This opinion was voiced right through to the end of the season. Personally I didn't like the moves, but only time would tell. It was all about winning the cup. It made me wonder how people view the moves now.

    Out of curiousity, has anyone who thought Holmgrem was brilliant changed their mind since the Flyers were handled (relatively easily) by New Jersey and Los Angeles with Carter and Richards are 8-1 and heading to the Conference finals?

    Is Lombardi the real genius for re-unting the two? If LA wins the cup this year, does Holmgrem get labelled an idiot for letting Richards and/or Carter go?

    Philly did better than I expected during the regular season, but fell way short of what this team was supposedly built for(Snyder didn't want a re-build). I know some will say they are better long term with the moves and that was the real plan. I have to question that line of thinking because of the ages of their top veterans in Briere, Hartnell and on defence-Pronger (when/if healthy), Timonen, Kubina and Byrzgalov is already 31. They will need to re-build the D again by the time their forwards mature (while demanding higher salaries) and their goalie could be exiting his prime.

    They have a lot of good young talent, but how good will this young group be when the veterans are aged and the youth are the ones playing against the other teams top lines all night and have to be the leaders now. Can they grow into top talent? Richards and Carter were/are still young and are proven performers. You know what you will get from them.

    Philly did better with (Carter/Richards) than without them and LA is doing way better with them (results can't be overlooked). Philly MAY eventually win the cup, but if LA does this year, I would have to say the moves backfired based on the fact there is no way to know for sure Philly will eventually hoist the cup.

    So what is everyones opinions…Holgrem still a genius or has some glamour worn off?

  2. thisgamewelose says:

    You also have to wonder how much of a difference Pronger would've made in the playoffs, or had Meszaros not been injured.

  3. reinjosh says:

    Actually if I remember correctly it was really only one vocal ass who was calling him a genius. Others like DannyLeafs (speaking of which, where are you?) and joel and myself called the move bold and it had a lot of balls. I specifically questioned the logic of not trying to reform the aging defense while their offense was so young. It was a weird dichotomy that I thought would hurt them. I was also not a fan of giving so much out to Bryz after just clearing that space. 

    The first round shellacking of Pittsburgh had me thinking otherwise shortly. I was taken in by the series and now thoroughly proven otherwise. I still largely think the moves were decent. They opened up space for Giroux who showed the NHl he was ready for it. However misteps were made. 
    Bryzgalov was one. He can come back and prove otherwsie but I still think at the end of the day they paid far to much for him. 
    I also don't think you can say the moves backfired yet. Schenn/Coutuier are still very young and both look like great talents. Nick Cousins looks to be a decent pick. Simmonds looks to be hitting the level many thought he could in LA but never did. Plus the time they freed up to allow Giroux to flourish looks like that alone may have been worth it. It worked out for LA and for Philly IMO. 
    Philly knew what they gave up and LA knew what they acquired. I guarantee you that Holmgren knew that this was the Richards he was giving up. That very likely means he needed and wanted to change the internal leadership of this roster. You can't discount that. 
    I actually vehemently disagree with you that this has backfired. It's been a season. And really, LA still has a ways to go to win the cup. 
     
  4. realistic_leafs_fan says:

    Man, I know you love to disagree with me but I never said "it has backfired". I said IF LA wins the cup then I would have to say it backfired. There were quite a few that really liked his moves and we're discussing how great the moves looked near the end of the season.

    Apparently, at this point, the new leadership in Philly needs work more than the old.
  5. JoelLeafs says:

    1) about the aging d-corps and the up and coming forward situation: This is where I think Holmgrem was most short sighted. Yes, he did a lot in bringing the big goalie they were looking for, but sacrificed offensive depth. Now, granted, they could afford to lose some offense, as evidenced by the first round scoring marathon with the Pens, but Bryz can't and won't solve all their problems. Couldn't agree more with you assessment of the strange dichotomy. (also, I'm okay with the money for Bryze, just not the term; I suspect you somewhat agree*)

    2) I never really bought it but the word going around after the Richards trade was that he was trying to take over the room, which was deemed Pronger's. This apparent tension/conflict was a factor in the trade. First, I'm suspect of that notion, partly because of my suspicion of the original claim, but also because of my second second point: Pronger be old. Obviously hindsight informs us that they could have use Mike's presence in the room after Chris went down, but you didn't need to be a clairvoyant to notice the wrinkles around the big man's eyes. Though to be fair to Holmgren, I think Richards is a lot like Brier, in that no matter where he's playing he'll tear it up in the playoffs.

    3) The Flyers aren't stupid… bold, but not stupid. This team may need some adjustment on defense, especially with the inflated looming question marks hovering over Pronger's giant head, but they are still one (if not the, especially considering age) most offensively potent and dynamic teams in the league. Plus, Bryze still has some good tread on the tires and the team has playoff experience. I'd be surprised if they don't make the finals at least once in the next 3 or so years.

    *As I said in a previous post about Smith, the desert just seems to make goalies look great (well, greater, I suppose).

  6. HABSSTAR says:

    They need to trade their core and then sign new guys for approx 35 billion dollars over 2.5 million years.  They've never tried this yet….

  7. reinjosh says:

    Even if they win I'm not sure it backfired. It's not like in the absence of the trade, Richards/Carter brings Philly a cup. I'd argue that LA's cup (hypothetical of course) has more to do with Jonathan Quick and Dustin Brown than anyone else. 

    Why does the leadership need more work? It's not like I disagree with you just to disagree haha. I just don't see what your trying to argue. 
  8. reinjosh says:

    1) I was a huge proponent of Holmgren picking Hamilton with that pick. Forward depth is great but they already had enough of it even with the trade of Richards/Carter and their defense was aging. Why add to the already young offense when you have the ability to fix the aging defense? Cotuturier has been good but their defense was clearly exposed over the season and in the last two series. You can pin the blame on Bryz, but the defense has a lot of responsibility too. (And yeah, more or less ok with the price, and not the term). 

    2) YEah I was always suspect of it too and to be honest I still am. However it seems weird to move those two guys, both who have been well reported to be best friends. It just seems a little too convenient. Not that we will really even know I suspect.
    3) Completely agree. If the trades tell us anything, its that Holmgren won't sit around and let a problem go unfinished. He'll fix the defense someone if it becomes an issue. 
    So largely I don't think the moves were bad, just maybe a little off the center of where they should have been. I still firmly believe that Hamilton should have been a Flyer (especially since it would have meant Couturier would have likely been a Predator :P. Apparently there was a deal in place to send Ellis to Boston for their pick if Hamilton was picked before then). 
  9. nordiques100 says:

    I think they will get Suter.

    I mistakenly said Pronger could retire to help the cap but instead yes the LTIR is the correct option.

    That would open 6 plus million in cap space for them to get Suter.

    Him with Grossman, Timonen, Coburn and Meszaros would be a deep enough D to be competitive.

    Jagr could probably come back for the same amount and Voracek can be signed.

    The Flyers, unlike some team in Ontario, do what needs to be done to get the top players available. I can see Holmgren going hard after Suter, who is arguably the most coveted free agent this summer.

  10. realistic_leafs_fan says:

    Yes, Quick and Brown have been great. Richards has also been very good and Carter has  contributed. 

    The trades backfiring would be based on LA having a cup and Philly getting knocked out in the second where their goaltending is being questioned again. The trades were made in order to make room for Bryz, since he didn't get the job done…how would it not have backfired?
    How do you know Philly wouldn't have won with Richards and Carter with Bobrovsky in net? Last I checked, Richards and Carter made the finals  with Philly and then took the Cup champs (boston) to the brink of elimination. 
    Holmgren may have been bold, doesn't mean it's a smart thing to do. Was Burkes trade for Kessel or Phaneuf not "bold"?, yet Burke gets criticized for not doing what it takes.
  11. Steven_Leafs says:

    LA is winning primarily due to their stellar goaltending. Obviously Richards and Carter are huge pieces that put a lot less pressure on their other forwards but their production wouldn't have helped Philadelphia all that much IMO.

    Playoff stats comparison:

    LA) Jeff Carter: 1G 3A in 9GP

    PHI) Jakub Voracek: 2G 8A in 11GP
    PHI) Sean Couturier: 3G 1A in 11GP

    Philadelphia was getting much more offense out of what they gave up for Carter than LA is currently getting.

    LA) Mike Richards: 3G 5A in 9GP

    PHI) Brayden Schenn: 3G 6A in 11GP
    PHI) Wayne Simmons: 1G 5A in 11GP

    Much closer here but since Schenn is putting up similar numbers as Richards, picking up Simmonds was a huge bonus here.

    Now obviously all this is shoulda, woulda, coulda, kind of mentality. We have no idea how LA or PHI would be doing without the deals but if PHI had lost the extra production that these pieces were putting up then they would have been eliminated in the first round (especially considering that Bobrovsky was doing worse than Brys).

  12. Steven_Leafs says:

    That whole thing about the Preds was interesting to read, didn't hear anything about that, smart planning if it was true. I do have to disagree about Couturier though, while PHI would have been better off with a defenseman I don't believe that Hamilton would have been on the roster even after Pronger went down. I believe Hamilton will be a great player but he is not NHL ready yet and when Couturier fell to their pick, they had to take him.

  13. JoelLeafs says:

    I've never been a philly fan, but this team seems pretty stacked at certain positions. Bryz needs a year to shut the fcuk up and play to regain his step; they wont too many games by blowing out the other team, that's not what playoff hockey is about. The D needs to most work. Pronger would have helped but the issues run much deeper. If they do manage to D properly– resign the right guys (Carle), Drop the right guys (Kubina), LTIR Pronger, sign the right guys (Suter, a 3rd pairing shut down guy or keep relying on Gustafsson) –they could become a favourite in the East for a few years to come.

    Also, if Jager is going to come back next season it'll be to win a cup, I believe Philly will be the team to do it with.

    Not worried about the Flyers. They have the offense, Bryz isn't in as bad a shape as many seem to think (IMO), and the D-corps, though in need to tooling, shouldn't be too hard to fix. Plus their recent playoff history probably makes them a team FA's want to go to.

    Also, what was up with that missed goaltender interference call on Holtby last night? Obviously didn't change the result, but it kind of blows that he misses out on his shutout after probably his best game because of a blown call.

  14. Steven_Leafs says:

    I agree, PHI is a good team with the pieces to win as long as Bryz improves his game. They got lucky to get past Pittsburgh, hell if Fleury had played a 3.00GAA game (which isn't that good) PHI would have been out in 5 or 6. While a lot of it can be blamed on the goalie, missing Pronger and Meszaros definitely was part of it.

    PHI just needs to focus on improving their defense. Signing Suter would be amazing but they shouldn't assume they will or relay on getting him.

  15. realistic_leafs_fan says:

    I do not disagree at all with the fact that LA is relying heavily on goaltending(which could be said for many Stanley Cup winners and cinderella teams:)). How much does Richards contribute with leadership though? That's a big intangable that does not show in the numbers.

    As for the numbers, come on man, your a smart guy, the player comparisson numbers are a little misleading to say the least. Let's be realistic here. Philly played two more games and were in a shootout with Pittsburgh which is not typical playoff hockey. All the Flyers have inflated numbers from that series. I also noticed +/- was ommitted.lol such as Simmonds -6 for instance in 11 games.

    The facts that really matter show – LA  9GP 8W-1L  27gf 14 ga
                                                     PHA  11 GP  5W-6L  41gf 44ga

    LA has outscored their opponents 2-1 and Philly has been outscored. HUGE difference. Out of the 41 goals philly scored, only 11 came against NJ…not much production from the guys you mentioned.

    I totally agree it's a "shoulda, woulda, coulda, kind of mentality" but I don't understand how people claim Philly is better off with what they have than with Richards and Carter. At this point, to me, it's waaaaay too early to claim that and to also claim that Philly, in no way, would be better off had the trades not happened is ridiculous…how do you guys know this? If LA wins the cup…they clearly have the upper hand whether Quick is great or not.IMO

  16. realistic_leafs_fan says:

    I realize S_L that you said "no one knows how either team would be doing if trades did not happen". I was more referring to production being lost and that others were still saying the trades are basically a win for Philly. Kind of rolled it into one response.

  17. reinjosh says:

    I'm still unclear on how it backfired. They made it a respectable difference and Bryz, while not spectacular at points, played pretty well and learned how to play on a new team. It's not like this one season determines whether the trade is a failure or not. You can't say it's backfired at this point. It's far to early. Frankly saying LA getting a cup makes it a move that backfired doesn't make any sense in my opinion. 

    How do you know that Richards/Carter would have led to Philly winning? Richards/Carter aren't goaltenders and anything they brought, effectively was replaced by Giroux/Couturier/Schenn/Simmonds/Voracek. Would RIchards/Carter really have been any better? Last I checked, Carter wasn't very effective in his last three playoff appearances with Philly, in fact he's been quite disappointing in his playoff career. So would having just Richards really made that much of a difference? I doubt it. 
    What's more, Bobrovsky wasn't exactly sparkling this year and was actually much, much worse than Bryzgalov this year. Is it really smart to let a barely second year rookie lead the team into the playoffs? He didn't exactly inspire confidence in 6 playoff games last year and certainly showed why in one playoff game this year letting in 5 goals on 18 shots.  
    I never said bold was smart. I just said you can't really say its a failure yet. 
  18. reinjosh says:

    And by respectable difference I mean they made it a respectable distance. 

    At this point I don't really see how you can say its a loss for either team to be honest. 
  19. reinjosh says:

    It's way to early for you to say that it's backfired too. You can't have it both ways. 

    Frankly I'm not even sure Carter really shouldn't have any bearing on that argument to be honest. He wasn't traded to LA. He was traded to Columbus and by all accounts Philly clearly won that trade as evidenced by the fact Columbus simply gave up on him. Philly went with a future prerogative with teh trade meaning that they can't really be judged on this year's failure to advance past New Jersey (and really that opens up a whole lot more points of contention with the argument. YOu have to look at if LA could have gotten past NJ etc).
    I think people put far too much weight into "who won the deal". Both team were trying to achieve different goals.
  20. reinjosh says:

    Even if he hadn't made the roster (and to be perfectly honest I was actually operating under the assumption he wouldn't have been), I still stand by my assertion they should have picked him over Couturier. 

    My reasoning is quite simply the need for a high calibre dman far outweighed their need for a high calibre forward, even that of a center. Hell they had just grabbed f*ing Schenn, why the need for Couturier? Couturier has looked great, I won't bother trying to say he hasn't because quite simply, I'd be lying. 
    They already have Schenn as that prospect, they already had Giroux, they already had Briere who had shifted from center to the wing, they had already achieved the objective of adding size to the forward corps through acquiring Simmonds and Voracek. Their defense corps was and still is aging. Getting someone who they could build around for the future, and thereby extend tehir competitive window even further (like they did witht eh forwards), would have been a better move IMO. 
    It's probably not going to be a popular opinion, but I still think they made a mistake picking Couturier. Even with him having made the team.Even having Hamilton not making the team. 
  21. reinjosh says:

    Agreed. Their biggest and most pressing issue is fixing the defense. Fixing or rather retooling I suppose, would go a ways to helping Bryz solidify himself too. 

  22. realistic_leafs_fan says:

    Man, I swear you don't really read what I wrote. For the third time, I did not say it has backfired at this point. My point has been that IF LA wins the cup then I would say it backfired. I base it on the fact that Richards and Carter would have helped a team win a cup and the guy they were moved out of Philly to make room for, Bryzgalov, did not.

    The moves Holgrem made were not done to win the cup in three years, Snyder wanted one now. Bryzgalov was supposed to put them over the hump. Pre trades, They went from being in the finals to being knocked out in the second round by the eventual cup winners. Goaltending or lack of was deemed the reason they did not win the cup. Holmgrem felt he could move Carter and Richards, bring in Bryzgalov and they would be a group that could take the next step. They did not. Simple as that.

    I also never said they would have won the cup if the moves were not made. I said, how does anyone know that they wouldn't have won the cup with those guys. it was in response to the claim that they are probably still better off now.

    How was it a respectable distance? They won a shootout against Pitt and were easily handled by New Jersey. Last year, they gave Boston all they could handle and many have felt that if it weren't for Thomas, Philly would have won that series. I doubt Snyder is very happy with the distance Phiily went.

    My point is simply…it seems Philly has taken a step back without Richards and Carter and LA has taken a step forward with Richards and Carter. That says alot to me about the impact on a team these guys have. They helped a good team with poor goaltending (Philly)make the finals and are now helping an inexperienced team with great goaltending possibly make the finals or even better. Bryzgalov hasn't helped any team get anywhere yet. How does that make Philly better off at this point?

  23. realistic_leafs_fan says:

    Whatever. you win.

  24. reinjosh says:

    Sorry, in one of my posts, I accidently forgot to add "if LA wins the Cup" to "it backfired". No need to get your panties in a bunch. I figured you could figure out the little mistake since I clearly pointed out the hypothetical in my prior post. 

    LA winning the cup does not prove Philly's moves backfired. The NHL doesn't end at the end of the year. This isn't a one-off season like in NHL 12. They signed Bryzgalov to a long term contract for a reason. 
    And frankly you should take your own advice on reading. I haven't once said Philly's is better off. Not once. I said quite clearly multiple times that regardless of what happens, I don't think you can say this has backfired yet. I also said that at this point I'm not sure you can see either team has lost. Neither of those statements points to, infers or intimates that I think Philly is better off. 
    I merely stated that one season in, not winning the cup does not preclude the move backfiring. Especially with every single piece they received in the trade working out beautifully so far. 
  25. frankinboltonleafs says:

    What should've been an LA/Philly final is looking more like a possible Yotes/Devils final. Is anyone excited about these playoffs? With all the comments above about what Philly should do….what the Leafs should do for that matter. Watching this years playoffs…as a gm I wouldn't know what to do. Brutal hockey in my eyes. Two guys in the faceoff circle and four guys lying down in front of the net. I don't like this brand of the game. I liked it in january before the refs put their whistles in their pockets. Most exciting games I watched this season were Oilers/Leafs. We are about to be entertained by Rangers/Devils. Wheres my sleep apnea gear?

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