Comments on: Habs/Sharks trade

By: lockedge

lockedge — Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:49:16 +0000

The most I'd pay for Souray? My choices wouldn't fly with Doug Wilson, I know that, as he enjoys giving developmental talent immunity in order to preserve the 'Everyone gets a chance' system style. To trade people who worked hard to make the team would hurt the system. There's still Lukas Kaspar to bring up, but he's still quite raw(though improving) in the AHL.
Also, if Bell was playing up to speed on the left, I'd be willing to haggle out Michalek, only because he's very useless in the neutral zone and has reservations about taking a hit to make the play(rightfully so, that rookie injury scarred him, but sooner or later he'll realize he's more durable than he thinks). He's a clutch scorer, IMO who can be a game breaker, but I'd take Bernier over him if only by a hair.
Michalek for Souray and a 2nd, because Michalek is an RFA and has a career upside of 85-95 points depending on how durable he is(and whether he'll be like a less talented Gaborik or Havlat) and who he plays with. He'll be a legit scoring threat with two way play akin to Henrik Zetterberg once he gets full confidence and works on consistency.
That said, Bell isn't what he should be and I don't think I'd count on him being up to par this year. I'd be willing to part with Ehrhoff out of San Jose's three newcomers on the Dline. I like Vlasic's overall play too much, and I'm confident that Carle won't be a Sandis Ozolinsh clone. He was a little rough along the boards last season and last playoffs, but he's improved and doesn't get pushed around as much, and keeps his positioning well. Ehrhoff has a booming shot and his accuracy will improve with practice. It's up drastically from last year and he's taking more shots this year. I could see in a year or two him being a force on the point if he begins to reach his potential. He can hit and isn't scared to block shots. He does need to work on his passing because he's a little too free(a bit of an understatement) and causes giveaways. Then again, almost all of my sharks give the puck away more than they take it, as they all play a style of cycling the puck, so I don't think it's a testament to his defensive abilities(though he does need to improve his passing). Afterall Grier has 25 Gv and 24 Tk, and he's defensively sound.
Ehrhoff, Morris, a 4th and a cond. 2nd(if he signs) for Souray and a 4th.
Though I'm no GM and have only researched the first 2 rounds of this years projected draftees, and I'm kinda tired atm, so my judgement could be foggy. Basically Souray for a kid who is restricted under contract and has Souray's shot without the edge of Souray, but who also is willing to block shots. He's no slouch one on one, but isn't the best passer. Plus, he's cheaper giving Montreal cap space to make another move if they want. Morris is a winger version of Marcel Goc with more offense and a lack of faceoff ability. He's in his final year of University(drafted in 2002, born in 83, and he's doing well in development) and should make a solid case for a roster spot at training camp next year.

And yeah, Marcel Goc is pretty good, I've been a fan of his since I saw him play for Gerrmany in 2001(U18) and 2002(WJr). He can play in any situation, on any line. It's just a shame he isn't used in offensive situations more often, because he's entirely capable.

I don't know how he's playing on Montréal, but I think Gainey's best offseason acquisition other than re-signing Huet, was getting Mike Johnson. The guy is solid as a rock in his skillset. Two-way, PK specialist, can score 20+ goals, 50+ points, works in any situation, and contrary to what his career stats say, he's fairly durable.

By: habsoverserver

habsoverserver — Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:40:42 +0000

two wins in a row and it's radio silence in hab land.

By: Habroller

Habroller — Wed, 21 Feb 2007 03:02:01 +0000

Souray is actually not too shabby on the PK. His positional play and agressiveness, as well as an above-average technique to clear off the puck (mainly due to his shooting skills) makes him a valuable asset on any PK's 2nd wave. His real weakness is that he gets shifted easily by speedy and talented forwards. He tends to play the puck instead of playing the body, therefore getting burn by nifty dekers. It really gets pathetic sometimes, as shown on Alex Semin's goal earlier tonight.

He plays confident and calm in his own zone, makes good 1st passes and throws solid hits. He's just as bad 1-one-1 as you can get. At least he makes twice as much highlight reels!

I really love those Sharks, and for some reason, especially that little Marcel Goc too...

What's the max you'd give for Souray (forget Wishart-likes, it'd have to include at least one NHL youngster)

By: lockedge

lockedge — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:40:01 +0000

I'd give much more than a 2nd rounder for Souray. I'm just saying that trading assets for assets where both would leave glaring holes isn't a win/win case for either side. I'd be interested in Souray for this playoffs at the least because Ehrhoff doesn't man the point with enough aggression or confidence, and is always scared off by defenders whenever he has a perfect shot lined up. He's like Michalek, except not nearly as anti-physical. Souray IS valuable. I'm just saying that even if he is, trading away someone who they pretty much need up there is not good.

If there's anything that troubles me about Souray it's his defensive skills. I was heartbroken when my hometown Oilers were basically given permission to manhandle my Sharks, and the sheer amount of time we spent on the PK wore out our young defense to the point where they could rarely stick to anyone, let alone prevent scoring opportunities. Defense wins cups, and strong powerplays IMHO play second fiddle to a solid PK and 5-on-5 pair-up. If push came to shove, could Souray take the spot of McLaren if his knee flares up? Could he replace Vlasic/Hannan on the PK? Could he stick to Steve Sullivan or Brian Rolston or Henrik Zetterberg? I know Souray is physical and the Sharks might not require the services of Scott Parker's lame skills, which would be a plus. He could really boost the Powerplay that's currently not doing all that well(though injuries could be the cause of that).

And yes, Souray could sign with the Sharks...if the Sharks can afford it. The Sharks will have Malakhov's 3.6 mill off their shoulders, and right now they have 0.972 million of cap space. Hannan, Parker, Smith, Gorges, Davison and Nieminen are UFAs this season, and if they lost Parker and Nieminen, they'd have 5.847 of cap space, most of which Souray would likely demand. If the cap raises another $4 mill to 48 million, they might be able to secure one, maybe two of the above at a decent price in order to keep money in store for the following year. After next season, I'll list who's RFA and UFA:
-Thornton(UFA)
-Marleau(UFA)
-Pavelski(RFA)
-Goc(RFA)
-Brown(UFA)
-Michalek(RFA)
-Clowe(RFA)
-Rismiller(UFA)
-Carle(RFA)
-Ehrhoff(RFA)
-Toskala(UFA)

If Souray is signed to a deal, it would have to be reasonably low, in order to keep aside money for raises to the following. They'd have to keep at least one of Marleau/Thornton. Michalek, Carle and Ehrhoff would need to be signed. Possibly Tosky depending on who we have, Tosky's play, and Greiss' overall ability. I'm not high on Clowe or Rismiller, and I'm lukewarm on Pavelski(a more talented Grant Stevenson from what I've seen, IMO). I really like what Goc brings to the table, and I think if he was given a little better coaching and some better opportunities that he could fill in on the second line duties if things need to be switched up. That said, I don't know what Doug or Ron think of him.

Even if the cap raises another 4 million for the year after, it would still be a hassle.

Now, it's been a while since I've regularly followed the Canadiens. I used to go see a game every time I visited my grandparents, but they've been ill lately and my college work has kept me busy, so I haven;t been to a game this season or last. That said, I do watch the rare games that I can fit in, and I do think that Montreal has exceptional RW depth, with Ryder, Johnson, Perezhogin, Kovalev and Latendresse(I realize that some of these play on the other wing due to needs on the left). Their Centre depth is questionable, with Koivu being the only solid scoring line pivot. They have a line of forwards coming up the pipeline in Grabovsky, Chipchura and Kostitsyn (well, Sergei is coming too, but is farther away). They're set with Goaltending with Danis, Halak and Price waiting in the wings. Their lack of depth is in defense in terms of prospects.

That said, I don't think Gainey would be too interested in trading for a Scott Hannan clone in Ty Wishart(among other parts of a deal). He's likely looking for something to jumpstart that #1 line, or offer next year's team a significant chance at contending for the cup.

Of course, I also complained when Wilson traded away Sturm, Stuart and Primeau for Jumbo Joe, stating that the lack of depth overall(loss of D, LW and C) would hurt San Jose more than Joe would help, and I was proven wrong when players I thought lowly of stepped up and proved me wrong. Of course SJ bowed out from the Playoffs carrying 3 AHL defenders and an AHL winger, but I consider that a lack of conditioning and lack of experience.

By: habsoverserver

habsoverserver — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:53:00 +0000

amazing how one win after six losses is sufficient pablum to calm the masses.

forsberg was never coming and souray isn't leaving.

montreal will still make the playoffs. this entire melodrama is just posturing for the 08-09 season which is when gillet wants to win something and flip the team for a handsome profit.

By: Habroller

Habroller — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:11:50 +0000

You bring good points, but if we could steal Bernier AND Vlasic (not Carle), I'd still do it in heartbeat. Otherwise, I'd definitely keep Big Sheldon.

By: Habroller

Habroller — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:57:19 +0000

Obviously you're not very interested in acquiring Souray and I can't blame you for it. If Wilson thinks like you, the deal won't ever happen, unless Gainey turns trisomic. You bring good arguments and seem to know your team well, and I respect that.

However, the fact remains that Souray has a better value than what you're giving him. The reason SJ seems that much interested in him, is that he would likely re-sign with them, thereby putting him in a different category than Nagy who never expressed any preference to be moved in Dallas' area.

You're specifically detailing how much loosing Bernier, Vlasic & Michalek would hurt the Sharks, but loosing Souray for us would be as if you lost Marleau or Thornton.

Like him or not, but Souray's a premium all-star in terms of an offensive threat, and his defensive weaknesses are balanced by his hitting, fighting and locker room presence. He gets stupid penalties once in a while but the whole team does. The fact he's got over 100 PIM only shows he's gritty, not all of his minors (like you previously stated) being for stupid reasons.

But again, you don't seem to like him very much, and it's your right. I personnally am not a big fan of Joe Thornton (not saying Souray is as valuable) and wouldn't want to part with Kostitsyn & Komisarek + high pick for him (just an example). You probably wouldn't even give a 2nd rounder for Souray (if I understand you well). Pavelski has nothing to bring to Mtl present line-up, so he won't be part of any potential deal. All that to say we could debate for hours, it still wouldn't change the fact you don't really like the guy anyway.

We'll see in the next few days if your GM agrees with you though...

By: Stubbs25ca

Stubbs25ca — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:34:03 +0000

Man .. all these post about souray going is starting to make me sick. Im a die hard habs fan and hearing things like Bernier for Souray straight up is just plain stupid along with all the others .. Souray is our best D. man yes he is better then Markov . People say markov is better cause he is abetter in his own end .. Big Whoop .. people allways say that Souray makes so many mistakes it cancelles out his abilty on offence . What about Markovs inabilty to score like Souray Cancells out his Defenceive play .. The only reason that Montreal is in the position there in with a chance to make the playoffs is because of Sheldon Souray . the PP is where he shines .. there is no secret to that .

He has been the face of the franchise for the entire year .. i think trading him would be a huge step backwards .. and correct me if im wrong . Berneir is not establised .. neither is Carle .. both play great yes no body is not saying that but if are looking for more prosepects . why dont we just look to Hamilton .. Chimchura .. Price . Kostinsyn ect.. we dont need Bernier .. we need a top Center if we do trade Souray .. i dotn know why every body always says .. trade him . he is leaving .. he has stated time and time again that he wanted to stay in montreal ... these rumors the he is heading to the west coast at seasons end is just rumors .. Bob too said that he wanted to keep him ..

If he wants to stay there is no reason to wait until the summer or start contract talks now . if we are going to trade anybody it shouldnt be our best D. man because of his Market Value is the highest among our D. which doesnt make any sence cause What Value will we get in return .. a Maybe player that is Big .. so what .. we need a Second line center .. we have lots of Free Agents in teh summer that we could get rid of such as Ninenima (2.5million) not to mention Aebischer(1.9) and Rivet (2.5milion) its just stupid to think we cant sign Souray and MArkov .. even at 5 miil each even though they wont get quite that much . All im saying is if we let souray go for Bernier or Carle .. we are doomed .. our PP will be nothing .. our best Leader will be gone .. we will never recover .. Norris Trophy Candiate (Souray ) for two maybe players ... Bernier ... CArle .. . again .. if we need prospects . lets head to hamilton . not to San jose so they can rob us of our Best player .. but thats just my fustrated opinion ....

Sheldon Souray .. a leader among leaders

By: Stubbs25ca

Stubbs25ca — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:32:19 +0000

By: Stubbs25ca

Stubbs25ca — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:31:19 +0000