Wings Acquire Lang!!

The Red Wings have done it again. TSN has learned that Detroit has acquired centre Robert Lang from the Washington Capitals for Tomas Fleischmann, a first round pick in 2004 and a fourth round pick in 2006.

Lang is tied for the league lead in scoring with 74 points (29 goals, 45 assists). In eleven NHL seasons, Lang has played in 640 games, tallied 173 goals and dished out 289 assists. Lang has been in Washington the past two seasons and spent nearly four seasons with the Pittsburgh Penguins. He has also spent time with the Boston Bruins and Los Angeles Kings.

The 19-year-old Fleischmann is among the WHL’s leading scorers, with 28 goals and 69 points in 53 games with the Moose Jaw Warriors this season

93 Responses to Wings Acquire Lang!!

  1. Freeze says:

    Lang is a big player physically, but he’s hardly an intimidator. I see him as 1) a longer term replacement for Yzerman, who may not play after this season. He’s not the leader Yzerman is, but he can more than cover Yzerman’s offesive production in his prime, and 2) an immediate replacement for the loss of production from another big former Wing – Fedorov. When Colorado signed Kariya and Selanne and the Wings lost Fedorov, there was a wide offensive gap at the forward position between the 2 teams.

    I really do agree with you about the Wings lack of toughness, although I would add Fischer and Steve Thomas to your list of guys who can handle themselves. The Wings have other annoying grinders who are very effective at disrupting the other team. Guys like Maltby, Draper, Holmstrom, and Chelios.

    I would think that Ray Whitney plus could be dealt for the big banger who can score maybe 20 goals.

    Bobby Holik was the guy I had hoped that Detroit would acquire, but his $9 milion salary was the road block there. Holik was built for the playoffs. What’s he doing in New York?

  2. MNWinger39 says:

    Great trade for both teams. Lang Gives the Wings SOme youth and skill “like they needed more” and he’s physical *The Wings really need that* Yzerman is getting old *all hail the great Stevie Y*. Caps are loosing the salery and are getting a first rounder and 4th in a few years. It works. Av’s watch out My perdict

    Wings 4-3 in westren conference finals

  3. neeman77 says:

    lol i dont think anyone got it

  4. MAniac29 says:

    Lang is not physical, trust me, I watched him in Pittsburgh for years, he has that power foward body, but he doesn’t take the body very often. And how do you figure they got younger?

    Way it is looking that might not be a conference final matchup, but a semi…

  5. scratchyzednik says:

    I love it…”great move by Holland” – any fucking retard could have done that IF THEY HAD THE CASH… it’s not rocket science to pick up one of the best players in the league, if one team has to move him, and there are only a few teams that could take him…

  6. scratchyzednik says:

    Once again, how brilliant can it really be? You pay a shitload of money for a good player. I could pull that one off – hey, where’s the guy with the cash? We need some more depth on a god-damned powerhouse team. I can’t wait to see them get bounced this year – it will happen. I sat back and soaked in the Rangers going down in flames, and will be equally excited when the Leafs get ripped a new asshole in round one. C’mon underdogs… that’s all I have left to be excited about in hockey now…

  7. ManillaKilla says:

    After the World Junior Championships, Valterri Filppula jumped ahead of Fleischmann. That’s probably why they thought Tomas was expendable.

  8. Wills says:

    Someone’s a little jealous! Your comments are so dumb I can’t even respond to them.

  9. ManillaKilla says:

    That was one of the most incoherent rants I’ve seen on this board. What is that saying about the rest of the teams when the Wings can give away their early picks and still have three of the top fifty prospects in THN’s future watch.

    Mike Sillinger

    Bob Boughner

    Nicklas Lidstrom

    Sergei Fedorov

    Dallas Drake

    Vladimir Konstantinov

    Keith Primeau

    Slava Kozlov

    Martin Lapointe

    Chris Osgood

    Mike Knuble

    Darren McCarty

    Dan McGillis

    Mathieu Dandenault

    Tomas Holmstrom

    Maxim Kuznetsov

    Yuri Butsayev

    Jiri Fischer

    Pavel Datsyuk

    Henrik Zetterberg

    Niklas Kronwall

    Stefan Liv

    Igor Grigorenko

    Dmitry Bykov

    Jiri Hudler

    Tomas Fleischman

    I think their draft history speaks for itself. Plus, anyone could of had Kris Draper for a dollar. The Wings were the only ones who saw value in him. Anybody could of signed Legace and Nathan Robinson (AHL all-star) for next to nothing, its not the Wings fault the other teams blew it. If you want to attack them for spending too much that’s fine, but to question them for how they “construct their team” is foolish and ignorant. Only the Devils do it better.

    “Fischer was considered such a sure thing, but he has really not come back strong this season.”

    People that know hockey realize it usually takes at least a year to recover form his injury. Since, he is only 23, I am going to go out on a limb and say he still has time to develop.

  10. ManillaKilla says:

    That was my initial reaction, but I gave it a shot anyhow.

  11. Killa_Bs says:

    I wouldn’t worry too much about the Red Wings falling off because eventually they will.

    They are now the oldest team in NHL hockey. Yes, they are older than the ancient New York Rangers! OK, so the Red Wings have some real good players that are under 30 (Datsyuk & Zetterberg) but the when the 30+ players retire it will be a difficult period for the Red Wings because many of the most important players are in the +30 category.

    Of course this is what it looks like today and there is no telling which prospects that will develop into stars or what trades the Red Wings will do. I still think it is pretty interesting to imagine what could happen in the future.

    The average age of the players used by the Red Wings this season is 31,0 and out of the 34 players used 21 are 30 years of age or older, and nine are 35+. All four goaltenders used this season are 30+ which might be a problem.

    I don’t think it is very realistic to expect all players to keep playing too long after they turn 35 which is why a lot of skates will be hung up in the Red Wings locker room during the next couple of years.

    So take a look at this list and imagine what the Red Wings will look like three, four or five years from now.


    Hasek (39)

    Joseph (37)

    Legace (31)

    Lamothe (30)


    Chelios (42) – 14 Pts

    Schneider (35) – 41 Pts

    Wooley (35) – 19 Pts

    Lidström (34) – 31 Pts

    Hatcher (32) – 1 Pts

    Dandenault (28)

    Rivers (28)

    Myrvold (28)

    Fischer (24) –

    Kronwall (23)


    Yzerman (39) – 39 Pts

    Miller (39) – 2 Pts

    Lang (34) – 74 Pts

    Draper (33) – 39 Pts

    Datsyuk (26)

    Devereaux (26)

    Williams (24)

    Hudler (20)


    Thomas (41) – 16 Pts

    Hull (40) – 55 Pts

    McCarthy (32) – 6 Pts

    Mowers (30) – 9 Pts

    Bootland (23)


    Shanahan (35) – 42 Pts

    Maltby (32) – 26 Pts

    Whitney (32) – 34 Pts

    Holmström (31) – 26 Pts

    Zetterberg (24)

    Barnes (24)

    Robinson (23)

    The good news is that the teams leading scorer, Datsyuk, is one of the under-30 players. What’s not so good news is that only three out of the 15 best scorers on the Red Wings are under 30.

    Among the –30 players Datsyuk and Zetterberg are already well established NHL-players who can be expected to be stars for a long time. Kronwall is a young defenseman who could turn into a new Nicklas Lidström. Fischer is a steady D. Hudler has great potential to be a star but hasn’t played enough yet. Barnes, Robinson, Bootland and Williams aren’t superstars in the making but could become NHL regulars. Other than these players most of the players under 30 are journeymen who I don’t think will stay in Detroit for long.

    So who’s waiting outside of the NHL. Here are some of the prospects that are expected to become NHL regulars. In my opinion the only player who has what it takes to become a star among these are Grigorenko.


    Liv (24)

    MacDonald (24)

    MacIntyre (21)

    Howard (19)


    Kopecky (22)


    Grigorenko (21)

    Jämtin (21)

    There you have it. It will be interesting to see what happens to the Red Wings in the next couple of years. After looking at this it is easy to see why Detroit wants to win now. In a few years it might be too late.

    It would be fun if the Red Wings traded away more prospects for a +30 player like Kovalev or Leetch.

    Good luck Wings.

  12. bignorth says:

    I remember people used to say the Wings were too old 4, even 5 years ago. They’ve won three cups since then. But the fact is, when the guys that are over thirty retire, and their contracts expire, Detroit is left with millions of dollars. Who’s not to say they won’t sign the next big free agent? Who’s not to say they won’t trade five million dollars to another team in exchange for some big name player? The Wings still have options after these guys go, and you are not considering these options. The Wings are not done, in anyway, for a long time. With the amount of money they rake in each year, cause face it they do have the best fans in the league, they will be a force to be reckoned with for a long time coming. Don’t tell me they won’t.

  13. Killa_Bs says:

    Where were those fans during the 1980’s?? I remember that the Red Wings were real bad back then. The good thing that came out of that was Steve Yzerman.

    Don’t tell me it can’t happen. The Bruins didn’t miss the playoffs for 30 years and then finished last in the league. It was worth it considering we got Joe Thornton.

    Another thing. If there is a lockout and the teams will have to keep their salaries down, what will happen then? In my opinion teams will have to rely more on drafting and developing players because they won’t be able to buy a good team.

    I also said in my earlier post that the situation I was describing was how it looked now and I did leave an opening for the Red Wings to trade for new stars.

  14. Freeze says:

    You’re right. I forgot about Filppula. Fleishmann did struggle a bit at the World Juniors. I also forgot to mention Steve Thomas on the Red Wings depth chart up front. The Red Wings depth is pretty amazing.

    If the Wings had Hasek in perfect health at the top of his game, I’d say Detroit is the clear cut favorite for the Cup. That’s not the case and I think the Cup is still up for grabs. Detroit just improved their chances with this trade.

  15. Bishop7979 says:

    the thing I dont get is, since when is 5 million a year for the leagues leading scorer a heavy payroll. I mean its not like hes Jagr or Yashin getting 10 and 11 mil to underacheive

  16. JIMFB19 says:

    Lang doesn’t look like the same player since Jagr and Bondra left? Did he get a haircut or something? 17 points in 15 games after Jagr left, and 6 points in 4 games after Bondra left.

  17. MAniac29 says:

    Trust me, this is far from an incoherent rant, as I said I wrote a long article on it last season, and I did plenty of research.

  18. MAniac29 says:

    Trust me man, my response was not incoherent, and if it was, i twas because I wrote it in a hurry. As I said, I wrote an article on it last year, and if you want to check that out, it is much more organized. Admittedly, this comes off as a rant, but there is plenty of truth behind it.

    I didn’t leave out what you call their draft history, if you look, you will see fischer, dat, etc, and I even listed them bringing them out as the selections that were good. I didn’t go back further than 10 seasons, because honestly you shouldn’t have to go that far back to get support for a team’s drafting ability. Why in the hell would you list Yuri Butsayev, Maxim Kuznetsov, Dmitry Bykov, Nick Kronwall, or Stefan Liv. Are you kidding me with Butsayev, Kuznetsov and Bykov as a draft history that speaks for itself??? That is pretty damn poor when those are the kind of names you’ve got to pull out. Liv, Kronwall, Hudler, and Grigorenko…the jury is still out on them and there is no reason to list them either.

    Ok, good call with Draper, who is playing out of his mind this season, I seem to recall somewhere the Wings wanting to get rid of him, but I may be mistaken. I think that the way the build their team is a poor precedent. Hands down, my opinion. How comforting is it to the Pirates, Tigers, Expos, etc. to look aroudn MLB and say, oh well to build a winning franchise, just look at the yankees. Basically you’ve got to say to yourself, we will never compete. If you do happen to put together a great young core and win for a season, don’t plan on keeping it, see Marlins this year.

    If teams tried to use Detroit’s tactics in building a team, the NHL would be chaos. Teams like Ottawa and Tampa Bay deserve all the credit in the world. Building a team should start from the Draft, and free agents should be to fill holes. I’m just calling that like I personally see it. With that opinion in mind, please do not just call this a rant or jealousy. I would not want a team like Detroit’s anyway…

    hope to get another reply

  19. MAniac29 says:

    Additionally I think Colorado is a much better team builder than the Wings, also you say I mentioned Tampa and Ottawa. New Jersey is also, and not comparable with Detroit, as their payroll is quite low, if you look at it without only two guys, Elias and Brodeur especially..

  20. bignorth says:

    Tell me where all hockey fans were during the 1980’s? In Canada of course. That may be a fallacy, but consider this. Because Detroit won the cup three times in six years they haven’t not sold out a game in a long time. Very true. But compare New Jersey to Detroit. They have been just as good, but at the same time they can only manage to sell 85% of their seats. Why? Do I blame New Jersey for anything. No. But Detroit sells out all of their games because they do have the best fans in the league. Obviously that could be argued by an Avalanche fan, but thats neither here nor there.

    I’m not saying that Detroit falling apart can’t happen. But its not likely to happen. At least not like the Bruins, because they are a whole different situation. They aren’t a big market, and they didn’t get their players by paying large amounts of money the way Detroit did.

    The note about the lockout- If there is a lockout next season it is already for sure that some of those ‘big’ contracts that Detroit has right now will retire. Even if there wasn’t a lockout-hypothetically speaking, those names will still be gone. The Wings will not have as big of a payroll next year as this year. Besides, they have other sources of income…i.e. the Tigers and Little Caeser’s. That means they’ll be in the same boat as several other teams in the league, which doesn’t really put them any lower than any other team.

    Your note about not being able to buy a good team is false. Detroit did it, Colorado did it, and between them they’ve won more cups than all the other teams in the league combined. But when you say that Detroit hasn’t ‘drafted and developed’ players, again you make a false statement. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Fischer, and a few other highly touted prospects show that Detroit does draft well and builds off those drafts. And don’t forget about Kris Draper. They only paid a dollar to get this guy, and he turned into a very good player. I think you’re underestimating what the Wings have done in this league, and how they got there. You talk as though they bought everybody on the team by trading draft picks and prospects, but the fact is that they have won three cups doing it.

    You are overestimating how much Detroit is giving up to get Lang, as well as the rest of their team. Don’t forget, a lot of the players on their team came there via free agency too, not just by trades.

    I’m sick of talking

  21. Petr89 says:

    Your assertion that teams like Ottawa and Tampa Bay deserve all the credit where Detroit should get none is ludicrous. There is an ebb and flow to the game. Winning breeds success AND higher contracts AND greater income. The Wings were horrible throughout the eighties (same owner for majority of this time) and the result was a good young nucleus in the early nineties. After a couple of great regular seasons and disappointing playoffs, the Wings tinkered a bit and finally put it together in 96 and 97. The Senators are just now making the transition from good young team to great “prime” team, while it seems that the Lightning are just entering the good young team phase.

    Detroit, on the other hand, is on the downswing from domination. This decline has been slowed by FA’s, savvy (sometimes unfair) trades, and something else that nobody ever mentions: Detroit hit their peak at the same time that the average playing age got much older. In the mid-eighties, most guys were done by the time they hit their mid-thirties. More and more players, due to better conditioning and higher contracts, are playing into their 40s, which has allowed the wings to really elongate their “upswing” time. Detroit has had a remarkably stable dressing room in terms of player movement (i.e. the same core players) for about a decade now.

    Check out Ottawa and TB in about 3-4 years, when all their good young players hit FA and arbitration, if they hope to keep their window for success open for longer than that, they’ll have to shell out some serious dough. It would be silly not to. Detroit built there team in the same way that these two expansion franchises did. Your last couple sentences describe precisely what the wings did. I also wrote an article a while back, you can check it out if you like.

    Out of curiosity, who do you root for?

  22. Petr89 says:

    Umm…Colorado’s payroll was 4th last year, while NJ’s was 8th. Not exactly poor. And, the Avs generally make as many if not more FA signings and/or picks for players deals than Detroit.

    Blake, Fleury, Bourque, Morris, Selanne, Lemieux, Kariya off the top of my head…

  23. guinsfan4life says:

    Welcome to the good ole’ National HOckey League-

    where you can pay 90million in salaries and other teams can pay 30million in salaries and the players insist there is nothing wrong with the game…

    I hope to god that there isn’t a season next year, just as long as the game is fixed.

  24. guinsfan4life says:

    Okay, TC if you ain’t saying this wasn’t a brilliant move, then I will-


    Look, when you have the cash to pay for a contract such as this, then you are able to trade for these players. This move was a plain old salary dump. The first round pick is going to be in the bottom of the first round, the fourth rounder is a crapshoot, and from what I am hearing Fleishmann or whatever his name is–ain’t gonna be that great anyway. This is what this league has boiled down to. Sign players to big money contracts and when you realize you can’t afford them or you ain’t going to make the playoffs–trade them to a team with deeper pockets-for practically nothing in return. I watched my pens do it last year.

    With that said, having watched Lang for years here in pgh, he is the mold of a power forward. When he was on a line with Kovie and Staka for a couple years, he would own the slot and smack in any rebounds off their shots. He is so strong infront of the net and in around net.

  25. guinsfan4life says:

    Mik, your making more out of this than was actually there. It can be summed up in two words:



  26. guinsfan4life says:

    THe trade would still have happened regardless of the lockout. Washington is loosing shit loads of money and decided to start over.

  27. MAniac29 says:

    You are definitely right about the upswings and downswings, and the parts that you mentioned about building a team a true, but I just hope that after the new CBA, there won’t be such a huge threat of going from “good young team”, to “great prime team”, to lose all that talent cause you can’t afford it. I realize that you have to shell out cash, and I really have no problem with Detroit paying to keep their players. I also don’t really mind signing FA’s, the only reason that I included that was because I was sick of people ripping the Rangers but praising the Wings. My problem is when the pending UFA’s are more important to a team than the draft. I like the ideas of teams building from within. I love team loyalty, and I like the building of rivalries out of the same players growing together and competing together. Can you see what I mean at all regarding Detroit’s drafting? I think that this impending downswing in detroit could have been avoided with more care shown for their picks. Honestly trading a first and anything more for M. Schneider is a joke. Seriously, how much could he have pushed them over the top, when you compare the potential value of a high pick. I just see an attitude of no worries come draft time being exuded in Detroit. Making any sense? I hope so, because I don’t want this to sound like a rant actually, I just feel that its wrong to throw picks around the way they do.

    I root for the Penguins, but please don’t construe it as jealousy, the Pens had their run, accumulating the 3rd best winning pct. of the 90’s. I personally am enjoying this season in pittsburgh, this the hardest working team I’ve ever had the privalege of seeing in Pittsburgh. It’s a new kind of hockey compared to what I saw growing up, the Lemieux to Jagr era. Seeing hometown guy Ryan Malone in the calder hunt is thrilling, watching young guys score their first NHL goal, seeing the OT goal the other night to end the winless streak and the guys act as though they’d won the cup. It’s all pretty special to me, and I think it will make it that much more special when they rise again. I just hope that the CBA makes it the rising part as fair as it was a decade ago. The playoffs in the East are going to be absolutely thrilling to watch, and I guess in my NHL utopia, every game of the season would be that competitive and played what that kind of heart.

  28. MAniac29 says:

    You are right that Colo shells out the cash, but they tend to trade players in the deals as well, for Morris they dealt Drury, that is no slight trade there, and Deadmarsh is a big guy to trade, and I think typically they draft better than detroit, practically everyone they draft finds a place in the NHL. Alos, they are not afraid to give youngsters a chance for a whole season long. I know Zetterberg and Datsyuk, but I mean even this year, look at J-M Liles. For being in a spot where people even scrutinize your 6th dman, they have really stuck by this kid.

  29. ManillaKilla says:

    “I’m not saying that Detroit falling apart can’t happen. But its not likely to happen.”

    Not as long as Illitch owns the team. If he sold the team to an owner who pockets the money instead of putting it back in the team, they could get bad real fast. Then, people would start refering to Detroit as a “small market” club. For reference, see Chicago and Boston.

  30. ManillaKilla says:

    Colorado’s drafting has been horrible. They are ranked dead last for prospects. Had they not nosed Philly in the Lindros deal, they would have very few nhl calibre players. Look at their draft history since they became the avalanche(1995)…

    Mark Denis

    Mark Parish

    David Aebischer

    Alex Tanguay

    Martin Skoula

    Phillepe Sauve

    Scott Parker

    John-Michael Liles

    WOW! That’s impressive.

    I found it laughable that you knocked kronwall and then threw Liles’ name out there. Kronwall was not only solid before getting hurt, his ceiling is twice as high as Liles. Liles is a sixth d-man, at best.

  31. ManillaKilla says:

    Maybe I am giving you too much credit. Most people that follow hockey know obvious talent. Anybody that saw Nash play in the minors knew he was going to be a stud. Injuries would be the only thing that stops Kronwall, Hudler, Liv, and Grigorenko from becoming solid NHL players. Likewise, Bykov and Butsayev would have been, had they not gone back to Russia. The only reason why “the jury is still out on them” is because the Wings can afford to stash them in the minors/europe for a while. But for those that have seen them play, their future is obvious.

    “How comforting is it to the Pirates, Tigers, Expos, etc. to look aroudn MLB and say, oh well to build a winning franchise, just look at the yankees.”

    Well, as a big Tigers fan, I am not one who whines and cries about the yankees. The tigers don’t suck because of George Steinbrener. For me, the “small market” label is just an excuse. How can the Wings be considered a “big market” team, and the Tigers a “small market” team in the same town. Fact is, unlike with the Wings, Illitch has done a poor job of running the tigers. They have signed bad players to ridiculous contracts and drafted terrible. Thus, after a decade of dreadful teams, their fan base has dried up. They don’t have good attendance, they don’t get good tv ratings, and their merchandising sales aren’t good. That’s why they don’t have the same resources as the Wings. They need to build a great young core, like you said. Once, that core becomes successful, fan interest will improve, and so will the team’s resources. At that point, it’s up to the owner to step up and pay the players, instead of pocketing the extra money. That’s why the Wings can afford to run their team the way they do. Illitch looks to just break even, and isn’t concerned with making lots of money off the team. Look at the Chicago Blackhawks. Do you really think that’s a small market team? They have an outstanding arena and great fans. But because their owner is a tight ass, who is more concerned with making every penny he can, their fans have stayed away and the team has gone downhill. They don’t even have a local tv deal. There are certain exceptions, like canadian teams and legitimate small market teams, that do need help. But how do you help them out without helping out the other teams that are masquerading as small markets? Any money Chicago gets via revenue sharing, is going right into their owners pocket and not the team. The best solution would be contraction, but that won’t happen. People who think a salary cap will fix things are just kidding themselves. The NBA has a cap, yet some teams have 80 million dollar payrolls, and others 40 million.

    One thing I find comical about the negative criticism of the Wings, how come nobody mentions the free agents they’ve lost. Instead of signing lapointe, they sign hull and robitaille with the money they saved. The amount was almost identical. Instead of signing fedorov, they get hatcher and lang for almost the same. The Wings were high on Bykov, yet they were outbid by a Russian team, and lost his services. Wasn’t it a “small market” team that gave all that money to lapointe? Wasn’t it a “small market” team that signed fedorov to a ridiculous contract the first time, forcing detroit to pay that huge signing bonus? Wasn’t it a “small market” team that gave all that money to fedorov this time? Forgive me if I have little sympathy for these so-called small market teams. I don’t use that excuse for the pathetic state my Tigers are in, so I get tired of others doing it. If fans pointed the finger more towards the owner instead of the system, there would have to be accountability.

  32. Killa_Bs says:

    I am sorry that I can’t make you understand. See, I thought you were able to comprehend english.

    So let me tell you how much of what I wrote you failed to understand.

    Nowhere in my post do I write that Detroit is bad at scouting and drafting players. In fact I praise them for finding players like Hudler, Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Fischer with relatively low picks.

    Nowhere in my article do I say that Detroit won’t be able to replace the players retiring. I am saying that there will be a lot of players calling it a career and that it will be hard work for the Detroit management to replace them.

    Nowhere did I say that Detroit didn’t have great fans. In fact I think they are great. Even though I am a fan of the Bruins I still got love for the Original Six. There is something special about those teams that a team like Columbus just can’t match.

    About the CBA you completely missed my point. What I am saying is that teams like Detroit and New York Rangers might not be allowed to have the huge payrolls they have today. The result of this would be that there would be smaller differences between the payrolls of the teams.

    And another thing that is just shows exactly how smart you are:

    You wrote the following quote in your post..

    “Your note about not being able to buy a good team is false. Detroit did it, Colorado did it, and between them they’ve won more cups than all the other teams in the league combined.”

    Where do I begin? In this sentence you, not me, write that Detroit did BUY the team that won Stanley Cups. This is something that you falsely accused me of doing and then you turn around and do it yourself. In the rest of the quote you show the HTR-readers how ignorant you are. “More cups than all the other teams in the league combined.” ??!! Are you talking about Stanley Cup? If you are then it might be about time that somebody told you about a team called the Montreal Canadiens. Detroit have won the Stanley Cup 10 times & Colorado 2 times. That makes 12 if you add them together (do you follow??). Montreal Canadiens has won it 23 times. (23 is more than 12) I am not sure if it is your math skills that are non-existing or if it is your knowledge of hockey. You see the statement you made is only true if you think the first Stanley Cup was won in 1996. If you didn’t know it – well know you do.

    So I suggest you do at least one of the following:

    1) Take the course English 101

    2) Take the course Mathematics 101

    3) Take the course NHL History 101

    There you go. Hope this post wasn’t too long for you too read. Feel free to ask me again if there are some things that you still don’t understand.

    You know what time it is.

  33. Petr89 says:

    In general, I think we agree. The main points of contention are a.) where exactly on the spectrum between “all FAs” and “all drafting” is reasonable, and b.) the extent to which the Wings have demonstrated some of the bad qualities you speak of.

    If it hasn’t been obvious before this point, I’m a Wings fan…before it was cool. So it may just be homerism, but I’d like to point out a few things regarding your statement, “I like the ideas of teams building from within. I love team loyalty, and I like the building of rivalries out of the same players growing together and competing together.”

    First of all, I totally agree here. While I’ve definitely enjoyed the Wings success, which, in part, is due to the financial advantages they have, it’s really no fun beating Edmonton since you know that they’ve traded their best players as soon as they hit arbitration for the last several years. The reason the Wings and Avs are so satisfying to watch is because winning a seven game series against them actually means someting (in sports terms…it’s still just hockey, but I do hate those bastards).

    I really think that few clubs have shown more loyalty to its players and vice-versa than Detroit. Do you know how few of our “playoff rentals” actually go anywhere the next year? The only guys I can think who didn’t retire or stay on are Wendel Clark, Bill Ranford, and Ulf Samuellsson (or did he retire?). Chelios has stayed. Schneider has stayed. Hull stayed. I’m sure I’m missing guys on both sides of the argument. Anyway, you want loyalty to the team? You’ve got several guys deferring salary couple years ago. You’ve got Stevie Y, who, with Mario, is the top point-getter ever to play with one team. By the way, who’s ahead right now between him and Lemieux? You’ve got Nick Lidstrom playing his entire career here. A large part of our nucleus of guys have been here since the first cup: Maltby, Draper, Mccarty, Yzerman, Shanahan, Holmstrom, Lidstrom, Dandenault,and Fedorov just left. Another few guys are more recent draft picks: Fischer, Kronwall, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg. I think Schneider, Wooley, and Cujo are the only guys that play regularly that haven’t been with the club for at least three years (could very easily be wrong here).

    Anyway, please read this thing that I wrote earlier, “”. I think you’ll find yourself agreeing with at least the last paragraph.

  34. Petr89 says:

    What follows has little to do with your post but is relevant to this whole thread:

    I think that, in general, “draft history” is an ill-defined concept that is easily manipulated to portray any point you want. You and manilla are doing a good job of throwing out lists of names, but it really doesn’t mean much to me. Besides the inherent difficulty in judging one player’s value, and the even greater difficulty in judging one years group of 7-10 draft picks, and the even greater difficiculty of comparing two sets of 200 players, there are also so many other variables that go into it. Draft position, number of picks acquired/lost in trades, development time, and particularly team depth are hard to measure but must be taken into account. Of course you’ll see less Wings’ picks in the NHL than you would an expansion team: besides picking lower, they also have practically zero holes on the squad that would allow a guy to step up and prove himself.

  35. MAniac29 says:

    First of all, I have no idea how you left off Robyn Regehr who is a great young Dman

    Ok how about all the players that have found themselves playing in the NHL somewhere that they’ve drafted:

    Dan Hinote

    Tomi Kallio

    Brian Willsie (how is becoming a better player in WAS and my just end up part of the rebuilding)

    Sammy Pahlsson

    Rick Berry

    Ville Neimenen

    Ramzi Abid

    Branko Radivojevic

    Riku Hahl

    Radim Vrbata (another I can’t believe you left off)

    Vaclav Nedorost

    Jared Aulin

    Kurt Sauer

    Peter Budaj is arguably as good a prospect as Liv

    I even left off fringe guys taht are young and will still probably be there…

    Now the Wings over those same seasons

    Maxim Kuznetsov

    Jesse Wallin

    Jiri Fischer

    Pavel Datsyuk

    Henrik Zetterberg

    Nik Kronwall

    Stefan Liv

    I think this speaks pretty loudly against anyone saying that Colorado’s drafting has been horrible..

    I mean Hejduk was just one year before also…

  36. MAniac29 says:

    Your points are all very good, and I am definitely in agreement with your last paragraph of that article.

    While the loyalty that you mentioned is true in some degree, I guess a secondary loyalty since some of those guys came from other teams, which shows disloyalty. I don’t know how much you can measure loyalty in guys like Math Schneider and Chris Chelios when they played large portions of their careers elsewhere. Even Shanny played for Hartford and NJ also, so…

    But there definitely have been those that have stuck in Detroit, I agree.

    Stevie Y has just passed mario and moved ahead by 8. If I had it my way, those two guys would tie ahead of Gretzky for the most points ever….haha..

  37. MAniac29 says:

    Are you telling me that none of Kronwall, Grigorenko, Liv, or Hudler have any holes in their games? I mean, being a Pittsburgh fan, I’ve seen the highly touted guys that rip the minors and then struggle in the NHL. What about Kris Beech, drafted a bona fide top notch prospect, he just can’t adjust to the speed and physicality yet. Don’t get me wrong, he still may be a solid NHL’er, but he hasn’t shown it yet. Ross Lupaschuk can’t play D at the NHL level, but is one of WBS Pens best players this season. Milan Kraft was a heck of a prospect, he is coming around, but very slowly. You are probably not familiar with Craig Hillier, but the Pens took him with the 23 choice in the first round in 1996, the Pens were regarded with one of the strongest goalie systems in the league with NJ, he has never played an NHL game. I am sure you know I could go on and on with these kind of stories, but the point is we just don’t know yet. I hope you are not saying that these 4 guys are absolute sure things, because I just think that would be a little bit blind and naive. I don’t see how this is even disputable.

    I also understand what you mean about the “small market” excuse. To an extent this is true, but on the other hand, it is a very legitimate complaint also. There has been proof that “small market” teams can make it and even win a championship, BUT my problem is the inabliity for said teams to sustain that success. Your Chicago example is a poor one. It is just proof that there is more to having a dynasty than having a good arena and good attendance/fan base. Some teams just don’t have the cash, but Chicago has also drafted fairly poorly in recent years, they lack many defensive prospects other than Mccarthy, and the era of that European guy whose name is escaping me, really put a big blow into their team. Lots of trades they have made stemming all the way back to the Chelios deal have not brought in what they should have in the end. Money has something to do with it, or being a tight ass if thats how you want to look at it, but it is blind again to not see that some teams are and will remain “small market” and when the success comes, there goes the success as soon as FA hits for some of the players.

    I agree there are some more legitimate small market teams than others, but I was unaware of an owner being able to pocket revenue sharing, and I am curious if you have evidence of this or if anything has been written on it, I have never read of this, but it’s interesting to me, your point about the masquerading small markets. I agree that contraction would never happen, and I also don’t think there will be a hard cap. I really odn’t know what a solid solution will be. I mean there will always be strong and weak teams, but I’d like to see it where teams can at least keep the very basic core of a successful building process together. A lot of that has to do with player prices for sure, and hopefully the new CBA at least effects that a little bit.

    Additionally, the Pirates have built horribly in recent years similar to the Tigers, and the Oakland A’s are an example that you can build from young talent into something, but our teams have just not done that. Again it just comes down to teams being able to keep even the core of a team together. Ok, so a team has to give up one or two guys, but to see firesales like the one in Pittsburgh for the past 2 seasons and the ones currently going on in Chicago and Washington just really brings the league down I think..

    anyway, I gotta run, I think I caught everything…

    thanks for the continuing replies, too many people on here don’t even bother after one.

  38. ManillaKilla says:

    Ok, now you’ve lost all crediblity. You thought some of the players I put on Detroit’s list was bad? 90% of the players on your “list” are scrubs. Only a fool would think twenty turds equals one stud.

  39. ManillaKilla says:

    I can’t really speak on your players in Pittsburgh because I haven’t seen them play enough. I have an OHL team in my hometown, and Beech played in the WHL so I haven’t seen much of him. One thing I will say, that success in juniors is far different than success in the AHL and in Europe. Many players post gaudy numbers in junior, so you really can’t just use stats as a good barometer. From what I heard, Beech’s skating (and contract) is what’s keeping him out of the NHL. My point, was that watching players gives you a pretty good indication of their talent. I use to watch Martin St. Louis when he was with the Detroit Vipers, and I couldn’t believe he wasn’t in the NHL. If you’ve seen a guy like Hudler play, you would know he is going to be good. In his first year of American hockey, he is already one of the best players in the AHL.

    “Your Chicago example is a poor one. It is just proof that there is more to having a dynasty than having a good arena and good attendance/fan base. “

    No it’s a perfect example. Chicago is a big market and can afford to operate like a big market. However, because of their corrupt owner, who is more concerned with making every dime he can, they are “small market”. When the Blackhawks had players like Chelios, Roenick, and Amonte they were selling out every night and were making their owner plenty of money. The reason their contracts weren’t renewed was because Wirtz(a billionaire) would rather have 10million more dollars in his pockets than a championship hockey club. At the time, he had all the resources in the world to pay them and still turn a profit. Once he let all his stars leave town, the fans lost interest, their resources and money made dwindled, and they then became a “small market” team. Their situation is much different than your’s in Pittsburgh. It’s also pretty well known that not every owner puts what they get from revenue sharing back into their club. There is nothing that tells them they have too. If the NHL gave Bill Wirtz 20million dollars in revenue sharing, I would bet 5 would go back in the clup and 15 in his pockets. There has even been books written about his corruption in sports and greed (

    When a team is lucky enough to draft and develop a good young core, you have to hope you have the owner that keeps them together. The fans have to share the responsiblity though, too. You mentioned the Marlins earlier, and how they were unable to keep their team together. Most of that blame falls on the fans. They had a great young team last year that was competing for a championship, yet they couldn’t get any fans to go to the games. Their attendance was so bad at one point, they had “bring your dog to the park day” for a promotion. Pretty sad.

    Your situation is different in Pittsburgh, but I am not sure how to resolve the problem. Much of the blame falls on Bettman. He tried to make the NHL the NBA, and it has hurt teams like the Penguins. The more a league grows, the harder it’s going to be to keep true small markets, like Pittsburgh, competitive. Fortunately, I don’t have to be the one to figure it out.

  40. 19Yzerman says:

    Your reseach skills are remarkable and there is no doubt that you are intitled to your opinion.However I can assure you that no one here in “HOCKEYTOWN” is outraged by any of the wings transactions overall.The net result is an ELITE Hockey Team that wins alot of games and come playoffs is considered to be one of the TOP Contenders.Say what you will about the Wings.Lang a one year wonder?Yea right.They are fun to watch.Seeing Yzerman hoist THE CUP was wonderful.What I would like to know is where its written that a team must be assembled according to your likings?Perhaps this is the method your teams uses to assemble its players.

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